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Brewster11
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

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what are the great "bargain" models, guns that are very nice for the price?


Easy. Almost any 2 1/2" 16 gauge gun. These are heavily discounted automatically, for no good reason other than they are NOT 2 3/4".

But the rationale for the 2 1/2" discount makes less sense now than it might have in the past.

There is virtually no practical performance difference between 2 1/2" loads and 2 3/4" loads. 1 oz has always been the standard for 16ga for good reason, and 2 1/2" hulls handle this load comfortably. And many 1 1/8 oz loads for 2 1/2" hulls can be found in reloading guides.

1 1/4 oz loads can be stuffed, albeit with some difficulty, into a 2 1/2" hull, but 1 1/4 oz makes little sense in any 16ga because of the lower pressure limits for 16ga guns, resulting in a barely larger cloud of slower moving shot. And for notox shooters, we expect to have a 1 1/8 oz notox load for 2 1/2" hulls tested this season.

2 1/2" 16ga shotshells are now readily available in a wide range of commercial loads because of the internet. Yes, 2 1/2" 16ga shells might cost a bit more than 2 3/4", but aside from Herter's discount dove shot, most standard length 16ga shells now sell at premium prices since they are no longer widely sold over the counter as in the past.

So the gap in performance, price and availability between 2 1/2" and 2 3/4" shells is shrinking because the 16ga itself is, yes friends, becoming obsolescent.

2 1/2" 16ga guns are today's great bargain in quality shotguns, and many fabulous examples are on the market at remarkably low prices.
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cowdoc87
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:46 pm  Reply with quote
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Simson

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i reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.
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grousepointer16
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Jun 2016
Posts: 96
Location: Boreal Shield of Ontario

I am with DAVE. REM 11 for an auto. Hard to find here in Canada , especially in 16 but when you do, generally $300 or less.

For a sxs, German guns for sure. Again here in Canada. very good quality guns in 16 can be found for less than $400 and real gems in almost mint condition for less than $700. JP Sauer West or East German, Simson, Merkel Suhl guns; all are quality built with quality steel. You can’t go wrong.

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GOD made a 16 ga and a Pudelpointer; then he rested. RIP MUK may the grouse hold tight for you
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Back to my original comment on the Nitro Special. I should elaborate. The Nitro Special is basically a Flues model...with N.I.D. guts inside! By exterior appearances, the N.S. looks like a Flues. Inside, N.I.D.

There is one on GB right now that has the N.I.D. frame "sculpting" on its the longer receiver. Pretty gun, I didn't look close enough to see if had been refurbished. The bidding on the 1947 (last year) gun is getting it out of the bargain class though.

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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:19 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

if it's just a reliable shooter one is looking for, then i agree with most of what's written above:
for doubles - Simson (pre- or post-war), Sauer (East or West), Merkel (pre-war an DDR guns), French guild and Belgian guild, Lefever Nitros, the 311 and its cousins;
for Autos - Remington 11, old Auto-5s of whatever make, and 11-48;
For pumps: Mossy 500s (older models), older Wingmasters, previously modified M12 and Ithaca 37;
Just about any single-shot in usable condition.
Curiously, or maybe not-so, "bargain" O/U in 16 seem thin on the ground. While there are a good number of solid O/U guns out there, I rarely see any that fall into the "bargain" bin.

A couple other points:

1. I agree about 2 1/2 inch guns, especially French and Belgian doubles, being a relatively good buy because of the availability of good 2 1/2 shells commercially and through reloading, the latter courtesy of the wonderful folks on this site who undertook to develop all those loads. But - big BUT - one should keep in mind that those 2 1/2 inch guns have their limits. First, letting the chambers out to 2 3/4 is not such a good idea. The barrels tend to have been lightly struck. This gives those guns wonderful handling and good "carry all day" characteristics. But, letting those chambers out so one can shoot 2 3/4 shells is taking meat out of the barrels right at the most critical point. Bad idea. Second, the wood on all those guns is old and, being relatively light, they'll recoil aggressively when launching a heavy load. It is very easy to overdo things, and stockwork on doubles starts at "expensive" and goes up from there.

2. When it comes to "classic" doubles in 16 (or any other gauge), "there are no bargains". Because the internet has made it so easy to see what the market is, if the price is low, there's usually a good reason.

3. One commenter remarked upthread about the Darne. Our own Ted Schefelbein knows about all there is to know about them and can disabuse any misconceptions about their reliability and durability (and likely will, when he stops by).

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

There is one classic that has not yet been mentioned that often passes as a bargain, a make that few people think about (shame). I will elaborate in a day or two for reasons that will be obvious then.

The whole 2 1/2"- 2 9/16" chamber thing is a situation of evaluation of each individual firearm in terms of "letting out" the chamber/ chambers. I have done it, several times myself...but one has to very carefully consider how the barrels are struck. Makers used a variety of tapers, even in the same model and year. A gradual taper of the chamber region usually lends itself minor lengthening. Barrels that taper abruptly at that 2 1/2" mark should be left as-is for reasons mentioned above. When in doubt, seek the opinion of a reputable gunsmith who specializes in older doubles or at least has considerable knowledge and experience with them.

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Griffon
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:32 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 429
Location: Maine

Bargain guns equal "Does anybody know a good gunsmith".

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Gil S
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:47 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Lowcountry Ga.

The bigger issue of short chambered guns is that many were designed and built for lower pressure ammo than what is available today off the shelves at big box stores. Sherman Bell's extensive testing demonstrated that a 2 3/4" shell of appropriate pressure could be safely shot out of 2.5" chamber without disastrous results or unsafe pressure spikes. And it's not just pressure that is at issue with the metal workings with a 100 year old gun--the recoil on a stock with a 1 oz. of lead and velocity of a modern load can place undue stress on the dowager's wood.
Gil
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

If people would stop believing that a load's killing power is determined by pellets traveling at the speed of light it would solve many, many problems...old wood only being one of them. Wink

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I just passed on another bargain. R grade Baker. Really cool old gun but alas, over 7 lbs. Bidding ends on it over at Gun Broker in 15 minutes. Dang I wanted that one, but too heavy to enjoy carrying all day.

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BarkeyVA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:37 pm  Reply with quote
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I like Marlin Model 90’s but it is hard to find a really nice 16 ga for under $400. I also like my pre-WWII Eastern Arms 101.7, a 5100 made by Stevens for Sears. I paid $250 for it.

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JonP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN

Not gonna list my best deals....just in case i want to sell them here!!! Smile
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Carlos
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 602
Location: Victoria BC Canada

Jon P; Whenever I find a deal, on anything, someone else finds a better one! It's a matter of "Oneupsmanship!"
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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:11 pm  Reply with quote
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Carlos wrote:
Jon P; Whenever I find a deal, on anything, someone else finds a better one! It's a matter of "Oneupsmanship!"


Carlos, you nailed it my friend. I will tell my friends I am looking for such and such a gun. Not a peep out of any of them.

I go out and buy something, THEN everybody tells me how I got screwed, and they could have got me a better deal.

Buy what you want, when you want it, "bargains" are in the mind of the buyer, not the minds of the "One Uppers"! Rolling Eyes

Dale

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...Andrew Jackson...
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16crazy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:45 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 240

I have been very pleased with my 11-48's. I never paid over $200 for any of them. Back a few years ago the 3 of them burned up several 8 pound kegs of unique with 7/8 ounce reloads as I taught my son and two of his buddies how to shoot. Sometimes the only thing that stopped the shooting was a too hot to hold gun.

They fit me well, have stood up to the pounding (which is impressive as the are far from new guns) and carry well.

That being said I feel my Bill Hanus birdgun was also a bargain. Was not cheap but have had it since 1993 and it taken almost every type of feathered game in the Badger state.
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