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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

3birddogs mentioned his four wonderful setters in another thread and the fact that one of them has the best nose. I figured I would share some thoughts about the subject that will hopefully stimulate deeper thinking about what seems like a simple subject...yet isn't.

An idea or two about the whole concept of "nose". After about thirty years spent watching many dogs of many breeds in the field, mostly belonging to others, I have started questioning the whole good nose/ bad nose concept. Hopefully I won't get too many howls of protest from trainers here, but I think it may be more of a mental thing than any physical strength/ weakness.

I believe that most dogs are born with the nose, it's just a matter of them learning to use it. Now think for a minute about the fact that the canine nose/ brain combination is able to differentiate over 900 different aromas. That is a lot. More importantly it means that a dog out in the field can simultaneously encounter scent from birds (of many species large and small), mice, voles, cattle, horses, insects, soils, a variety of vegetation, deer, rabbits, coyotes, raccoons, fox, and (heaven forbid) a skunk while being able to tell them all apart. Now this is a lot of information to process instantaneously and the dog learns as it goes. This may explain why so often, the older dog seems to have the best "nose".

I remember my previous dog, Katie, a small border collie if ever there was one, finding coveys, pairs and singles (scaled quail) on a hot dry day directly downwind of a refinery. The fumes were strong and quite bothersome, but for two hours she kept finding the birds. We completed our hunt there with a limit of birds. That was the day when all of this really began to sink into my still learning brain and I started pondering the mysteries of the canine nose on a different level.

There you have it, my greatly condensed and abbreviated version of a complex subject.

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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:05 pm  Reply with quote
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You will get no argument from me.

While I am sure that all dogs noses are not created equal, give me a dog that has been allowed to hunt, and use his/her head.

When I am able to wind a bird, that is when I will start telling my dogs where and how to hunt. Until then I will follow that dog and listen to what he/she is communicating to me.

I learned a long time ago, to shut up and stay off the button.

When you do that it is amazing how good your dog's nose becomes.

We humans are the biggest problem that most dogs have. They are born with this stuff, you and I are not. So should we be telling them or are they supposed to be telling us where the birds are? Read the dog, they will tell you when there are no birds around, when birds are in the area, when they are close and when they have them pinned.

The other part of this? Stay calm, be patient and be confident with that dog, if you don't that dog will catch your stupid BS negative energy and be less effective.

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Beagleman
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 280
Location: Clemson

I agree with both of you . I have spent the last 30 years working with beagles. I breed, raise, train, hunt,and field trial my dogs. A lot of beaglemen think that some dogs have bigger/ better noses. I don't. I think the differences in scenting ability lies between there ears, in how well there brains process the scent that the nose sends to the brain.
There are two sayings that apply- In order to train a dog the handler needs to be smarter than the dog. Until PROVEN wrong, always trust your dog.
I now have a border collie I am teaching to retrieve doves and sorta point quail with some guidance from Wyochuker. I may be overreaching. She may be smarter than me!
We could end up with a complete dissertation on low scent and high scent and dogs ability to track and trail through all conditions. I look forward to seeing other view points. Ken

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Dogs want to please us and, satisfy themselves along the way.
Dogs easily learn the road to both.
While we all know of and enjoy stories of “bird”dogs which are outside of the ordinary, .......nose or, sniffin’ genetics, makes the road shorter, more sure and with fewer potential potholes.
Same for many dogs looked at in or out of their own more traditional roles.
Just the reality and beauty of dog genetics.
Dogs than bend the roles never define beyond the single anecdote....or shouldn’t.

Nose...the developed use re game birds(game by our narrow definition) is a part of genetics....same for point or flush and so on.
Being able to scent when questing varies in degree and by the day.....thru that developed genetic potential and on to environmental and habitat factors along with experience and opportunity to learn. Health enters as well and, more.
Glad in many ways that I do not understand the complexities involved in sniffin’.

Analyzing should never trump appreciation....even in late winter, to me.
I happily accept the reality of easier roads, dogs and humans having bad days and, dogs and humans both learning within the opportunities presented to them.
In short, a dog’s nose, any dog’s nose...is a good thing.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

Not sure about exceptions, I do think that people don't give enough credit to the situation though. We get trapped into thinking inside the box, since we have been told the same thing for generations. If I see an attentive animal with a drive to please, I trust that the nose is there and it's my job to focus that attentive brain. It doesn't really take all that much.

Here are some old photos of Rusty's predecessor, Katie, a dog that traveled far and wide with me. She proved her stuff one day in North Dakota following behind a pair of blooded GSP's that a guy from Pennsylvania had bragged on for about 20 minutes. I turned her loose after they had made their sweep and were about 1/2 mile ahead. She put up about 70 pheasants. Never saw that guy again. His dogs certainly had the potential (I assume) but there is no replacement for doing our part to help them learn what to do with the input coming from the nose.
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:39 am  Reply with quote
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I have 2 English setters and a Pudelpointer all have been trained the same by me. They all have different range noses and react differently to smells. I agree exposure and training have a huge part but genetics plays a role also. My 2 Pudelpointers before my current one were also very different in the scenting abilities and how they attacked their work. My first dog had more drive to hunt and retrieve than any dog I ever owned. He followed foot or ground scent and never missed a bird or a cripple. However he pointed less than half the birds which at the time didn't matter to me I was a young meat hunter. My youngest Setter comes from some heavy duty cover dog lineage the difference in his nose and reaction is unbelievable to me. He started pointing and standing birds at long distance on his own before he got to the age I wanted to steady him. The flip side is he can run right over dead birds on occasion. I define it as a searching nose( high head)) and a tracking nose(low head) they are usually better at one than the other. That's why I like to hunt 2 or 3 dogs twice the fun and very interesting to see how different they do things. Time invested in the Dog and exposure to birds is 80% of it but 20% is natural ability and nose. I would break it down 50/50 for newer owners that have less experience training dogs they have to rely heavily on natural ability and instinct of the dog.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:54 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Bragging often trips a feller up.....but, bragging may have a genetic component.

Failure...is also not proof beyond the particular moment.

I is outa here. Smile
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pudelpointer
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:10 am  Reply with quote
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I apologize if it came across as bragging it was not intended too. Just observations of different dogs in the field at the same time. The dogs are definitely the experts on my team I work full time and am raising a family so they don't get 5 days a week in the field chasing birds. On weekends when we get out we usually find enough Grouse and Woodcock to keep me and the dogs coming back for more.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

pudelpointer wrote:
I apologize if it came across as bragging it was not intended too. Just observations of different dogs in the field at the same time. The dogs are definitely the experts on my team I work full time and am raising a family so they don't get 5 days a week in the field chasing birds. On weekends when we get out we usually find enough Grouse and Woodcock to keep me and the dogs coming back for more.


No, no, PP...I agree with you.
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fourtrax
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:24 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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Location: N. Shore, mn

My oldest dog (currently) when aged 6 months made three veteran Springers look like total idiots afield hunting Phez. The Springers weren't bad either. The Pup had a better nose & was a smart little operator. He was good on wounded bird recovery. Apparently He had "the gift" of an adequate nose & was better than avg. at using it.

I have a favorite & very simple saying: "The nose, knows."

In other words trust your bird dog.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:25 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

Yeah, bragging can back a guy into a corner, like in the above example with the poor fella from Penn. It's always nice to brag a little, but always down play things a good bit. If you build up too grand a picture, that will inevitably be the day your dog, for whatever reason, doesn't perform. I have witnessed some pretty miserable performances from dogs that hunted great the day before, and great the day after...it happens.

Having a minor background in biology I often wonder, with the whole genetics thing, why some dogs in a litter turn out much "better" than others. I have heard the stories of men who bought all of their dogs from the same source and bloodlines for generations, even at times having two pups out of the same litter, and report noticeable differences and results in the field. Sometimes the differences are stark in comparison. I still think there is something to the individuality of each brain that results in a variety of personalities, traits, overall drive...and nose. I don't know if anyone will ever find the answer, but it would be an interesting discovery.

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Chicago
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:40 pm  Reply with quote
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My observation would be there are a lot of factors that lead to a good bird dog, and I think you could call that a dog with a good nose. I believe genetics are at play, the trainer and handler, pups smarts and how they process information and learn and how many birds they have encountered. I probably forgot some.

How much of each component comes into play I don’t know. I do know some get there much faster than others given the same training and exposure to birds. My personal experience suggests that some dogs seem to have (or use) their nose much better than others. I also think some dogs simply handle birds better than other dogs.

When I train bird dogs I notice some pups just naturally crowd the birds and others come up staunch at a much greater distance. They all got trained the same way and there are all out there on the same day pointing the same type of bird. Can’t tell you why, I can just tell you they do. It is not all that difficult to get the pups that crowd the birds to back off and in general I would say the finished product is generally not quite as good as the dog that does it from the start. I also have no clue on that. My guess is the pup that holds it distance is just processing the information differently. Those same pups wind the bird earlier and again it may just be how they process the information.

A buddy had a bird dog he invested a lot of time and effort into. He’s retired and lives in grouse country and hunts pretty much every day. The pup was out of an exceptional breeding program and just never developed into a good grouse dog. Many dogs do not handle grouse well but are still very serviceable woodcock dogs. This dog did ok on woodcock but couldn’t handle a grouse to save it's soul. After six years my buddy concluded the dog was simply stupid. I hunted over that dog many times and it did everything right but whenever we got to where he was on point (suspected grouse) there was never a grouse there. Woodcock usually there. The same pup did very well on quail. I don’t think he was stupid, I just don’t think his brain processed the grouse scent the way it needed to.

My personal take with respect to grouse is the length of a dogs nose plays a huge role, or maybe it's when their brain tells them to stop and point (who knows). This assumes all other things are equal (training, handler, exposure etc). Too close and the bird is gone and too far and it sneaks out from under the point and you get an unproductive. My conclusion, and I might add none of my grouse hunting buddies agree, is that it is the luck of the draw. The dog that is programmed to stop at that perfect distance to hold a grouse earns the honors of being that perfect grouse dog.

Delmar Smith used to say a litter is either all good or all bad and he won at least two national championships with whatever pup was left after everyone made their picks. Not to argue with a legend but I have noticed differences in litter mates, albeit the pups were being trained and handled by different hunters.

It is something that always leaves me in awe, the way a dog works a bird and then either pins it or flushes it. What leads to it is mystical and I for one hope it always stays that way. It may be a good part of the reason we are drawn to upland hunting.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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JonP
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN

IMO...dogs run over dead birds because their desire to find new birds is stronger then their desire to retrieve dead ones. There is nil chance that a dog runs over feathers and blood and doesn't know it.

The degree of difference in nose among well bred hunting dogs is probably minimal. The desire to find, how the dog uses its nose, the awareness, and the inclination to point (if you have a pointing breed) defines what happens. Clearly dogs need exposure and some patience. I have owned dogs that loved to feel the wind in their ears more than they wanted to find birds. I have watched a dog locate a bird from 100 yds that other dogs didn't seem to be aware of. I'm not sure we can figure all that out. Just breed the ones you need.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Chicago, that's a pretty good set of paragraphs. There is a lot of unknown when it comes to these kind of subjects and you're right, having all of the answers just isn't all that fun. A man needs something to marvel at. The vagaries of open country, steep mountains, fiery autumn woodlands, birds... and a dog stitching its way to another bird sure fall into that realm.

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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:27 pm  Reply with quote
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I ran my two GSP's in a field trial today and toward the end of the 3 year old, Rebel's run, he locked up on point. As I went in to flush the bird, it didn't look right and as I went in and nudged it with the toe of my boot, I could see it was a fairly recently shot dead bird. Ends up my bracemate's first bird got up and as he shot it his GSP was distracted by a tweety bird and missed the fall of the quail. He tried redirecting the dog to no avail, so left the bird and continued hunting. Rebel got good scent downwind of the bird and acted like he was positive it was a good find, not a dead bird.

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