16ga.com Forum Index
Author Message
<  16ga. Guns  ~  16ga of the rifle world
Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:11 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy

16crazy wrote:
I'm sure I am missing something but I can't see what the twist has to do with the fact that the two guns have a great deal of difference in overall cartridge length.

The Mark X will take a reload with an overall length of 3.28 inches.
The FN custom will only take a reload of 3.190 inches of overall length.

The freebore in the Mark X does not enhance accuracy with lighter bullets.


The twist of the barrel, ie: 1-10, 1-9,1-8 etc determines how fast the bullet will turn, regardless of chamber length or overall bullet length. The faster the turn,the better the lighter bullets will stabilize. Conversely the slower twist, will stabilize the heavier bullets, 160-175 grain.

Your Mark X probably has 1-10 or slower twist, and will not be optimal for lighter 7mm bullets such as 110-120-130.

This is also predicated on the B.C of the bullet, the higher the B.C., the faster the twist rate should be.

That is why you see .223 Rem AR-15's today having 1-8, 1-7, twist, they need it to stabilize the longer .22 cal bullets used today, 70-90 grs.

Dale

_________________
One man with courage makes a majority.

...Andrew Jackson...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fin2feather
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:52 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2170
Location: Kansas High Plains

1stgun wrote:
kgb wrote:
Savage 99 in .250 or .300 Sav, maybe .358 Winchester. That last caliber is hard to find, the other two are more like the gauge-common enough but not a lot of people looking for them to use as a primary arm.



+1


+2, with preference for the .250.


_________________
I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

By and large, faster twist rates are for the stabilization of heavier bullets....not lighter bullets( as earlier stated), per caliber.

Re the 7X57....for example, 1 in 9” for the 175 grain.

A fast twist and a lighter bullet can be tough on the bullet’s integrity.

IMHO, of course.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:26 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy

tramroad28 wrote:
By and large, faster twist rates are for the stabilization of heavier bullets....not lighter bullets( as earlier stated), per caliber.

Re the 7X57....for example, 1 in 9” for the 175 grain.

A fast twist and a lighter bullet can be tough on the bullet’s integrity.

IMHO, of course.


You are right, I was wrong, had them reversed. Thank you for correcting me.

I was right on the B.C though. Wink

Dale

_________________
One man with courage makes a majority.

...Andrew Jackson...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Cheyenne08 wrote:
You are right, I was wrong, had them reversed. Thank you for correcting me.


No problem....we all get things switched every so often.
I had a devil of a time with a bowl of soup and a spoon one time!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:28 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

16 ga. of the rifle world? Middle weight? Cult following? Limited availability of ammo?

Well if we are going to ponder this then we must ponder it correctly. If the 16 hits like a 12 and carries like a 20, then the rifle must hit like a .270 and carry like a .243 so to speak. Add this to the above and one round comes to mind: .257 Weatherby.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I have always been a fan of the .250 Ackley, but Mr. Ackley's version of the .250 Savage has no off the shelf ammo. We may be able to include it though, since the factory ammo can be used and then cases are reloaded afterward.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Back to the Mark X discussion. Are we talking an Interarms/ Whitworth Mark X or a Weatherby rifle?

At any rate, chamber length (throat region) can hinder light bullet performance. It is a matter of not being able to seat the bullets out to the rifling lands. Most guns shoot best with bullets at the lands or mighty close. I won't go into actual measurements in thousandths of an inch as each barrel will have its own preference and that sometimes varies from bullet to bullet.

It is not uncommon to be able to seat a longer or less tapered bullet out to the lands but not be able to do the same with shorter bullets or ones with a very sleek taper. Playing with these factors in a gun that has a somewhat lengthy chamber throat can make huge differences, provide twist rate is appropriate. Been down this road many times with factory built rifles.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John E
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Sep 2017
Posts: 13

WyoChukar wrote:
I have always been a fan of the .250 Ackley, but Mr. Ackley's version of the .250 Savage has no off the shelf ammo. We may be able to include it though, since the factory ammo can be used and then cases are reloaded afterward.


Mr. Ackleys, "IMPROVED" Cartridges, by design, do have off-the-shelf ammo. All the Improved chambers will chamber and fire the parent cartridge. That is what sets an "Improved" apart from a "Wildcat".

It will lose some velocity, but it can save a hunt if you l misplace your ammo.

John

_________________
John

Baltimore Arms Co, B Gr.
SAC OOE
A.H.Fox Sterlingworth
Ithaca Lewis, Minier, Flues Two Bolt Hammer Gun,
Lefever NS, Western Arms LRG ejector
Baker G&F-Batavia Leader
Am. Arms Whitmore
Husqvarna 20
FN Auto 5
Marlin 90, 16, 31
Ithaca 37R
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:09 pm  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 1370
Location: Cheyenne, Wy

John E wrote:
WyoChukar wrote:
I have always been a fan of the .250 Ackley, but Mr. Ackley's version of the .250 Savage has no off the shelf ammo. We may be able to include it though, since the factory ammo can be used and then cases are reloaded afterward.


Mr. Ackleys, "IMPROVED" Cartridges, by design, do have off-the-shelf ammo. All the Improved chambers will chamber and fire the parent cartridge. That is what sets an "Improved" apart from a "Wildcat".

It will lose some velocity, but it can save a hunt if you l misplace your ammo.

John


+ 1, but in myopinion, the difference is not so great as to go through the rechambering process, especially with today's powders.

The 250 Savage is a very efficient cartridge, coming within 100 fps of the 243 Win with approximately 10 grains less of powder.

Actually, IMHO, the 244 Rem and 243 Win were never needed, just a good publicity job done by mainly Warren Page of Field and Stream magazine.

Had the ammo companies loaded the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts to their potential, we might not even know about the 24's. Wink

Dale

_________________
One man with courage makes a majority.

...Andrew Jackson...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
16crazy
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 240

The 7x57 is an Interarms Mark X.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I kind of thought so. No "free bore" throat. Even so, factory throat lengths do vary, it is the one part of the chamber that isn't required to adhere to a standard for safety purposes. Each manufacturer chooses their throat length based on a variety of factors and sometimes that doesn't align with our personal goals. The Mark X is a pretty good rifle. I have Dad's old 7mm mag and like it.

What impressed me about certain Ackley "improvements" is how much velocity they produced on reasonable amounts of powder. The .250 Savage, 257 Roberts, and 7x57 are prime examples. The .243 case is another.

I have a .243 Ack. that does amazing things with 95 gr. Berger VLD's pushed by VV N165. It's a whopper of a gun though, 17 lbs with scope and a 29.5" 1000yd benchrest taper barrel. But, a high B.C. bullet at an honest 3500 fps and half dollar groups at 500 yards speak to its worth. This is hardly a 16 ga. of the rifle world though. It's a purpose built firearm that excels for what it was designed to do. Yes, I actually carry it. It's a coyote gun for long ranges or high wind situations. Don't use it often, but when I do, it leaves me no excuses.

_________________
Only catch snowflakes on your tongue AFTER the birds fly south for the winter...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kgb
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:13 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1256
Location: Nebraska

Cheyenne08 wrote:
John E wrote:
WyoChukar wrote:
I have always been a fan of the .250 Ackley, but Mr. Ackley's version of the .250 Savage has no off the shelf ammo. We may be able to include it though, since the factory ammo can be used and then cases are reloaded afterward.


Mr. Ackleys, "IMPROVED" Cartridges, by design, do have off-the-shelf ammo. All the Improved chambers will chamber and fire the parent cartridge. That is what sets an "Improved" apart from a "Wildcat".

It will lose some velocity, but it can save a hunt if you l misplace your ammo.

John


+ 1, but in myopinion, the difference is not so great as to go through the rechambering process, especially with today's powders.

The 250 Savage is a very efficient cartridge, coming within 100 fps of the 243 Win with approximately 10 grains less of powder.

Actually, IMHO, the 244 Rem and 243 Win were never needed, just a good publicity job done by mainly Warren Page of Field and Stream magazine.

Had the ammo companies loaded the 250 Savage and 257 Roberts to their potential, we might not even know about the 24's. Wink

Dale


Sierra's reloading manual lists 3400fps for an 87gr bullet in the .250AI and my rifle comes within 40fps of that using their data. For the standard .250 they show 3200fps which backs up what you say of that cartridge--today's powders (and a willingness to use the potential of the round) beat the original 3000fps level. The AI data also adds 200fps to the 100's and 117's over the standard case, it's up to the user to figure if the gain is worth it. My rifle was built using a barrel blank so it wasn't a matter of re-chambering, I would think that's the more common route to Ackley guns today.

The reasons I've seen presented for the .25's at lower pressures were based on the weaker action of the 99 for the .250, and original builds on supposedly weaker military bolt actions for the .257 which doesn't make so much sense to me but was from writers living closer to the events than I. If the .243 and .244 as presented were better then that's just the way it was and if it got more of those guns out the door then it's a success! The 6mm's do give a better bullet selection than the .25's, so I can keep more junk on the reloading shelves.

WYOC,

I had to think twice about it, but the Weatherby is a Mark V, making it half the rifle of the Interarms Mark X. Wink

_________________
Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pbeaver
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:19 am  Reply with quote
Member
Member


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 133
Location: Indianapolis, IN

WyoChukar wrote:
I have always been a fan of the .250 Ackley, but Mr. Ackley's version of the .250 Savage has no off the shelf ammo. We may be able to include it though, since the factory ammo can be used and then cases are reloaded afterward.


If you look at the dimensions, There is something very close to the .250 Ackley that is setting the rifle world on fire. The bullet is .007 larger in diameter, and all other specs are remarkably close..... 6.5 Creedmoor.

If you are looking at the 16ga as an effective classic that is ignored and want the same in a rifle, the 6.5-55 and 7x57 are obvious choices.

From a function point of view, it is hard to make a comparison from shotgun to rifle by caliber, since there are so many rifle caliber choices. I would say the weight and handling of the rifle would be the deciding factor. I'm thinking a A rifle like a Kimber 84M, Savage 10 lightweight, Howa Alpine, or Remington M7 among others, would be handy like a good 16 double. The 6.5 Creedmoor would be a good choice, but in reality, other calibers would work fine.

Phil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JonP
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN

The 7x57 would be a good choice but the 16 gauge goes back to much earlier times. A standard woodsman's caliber of the 19th century was the 9.3x72R. Many were brought back by GIs from Germany in combination guns. Today they are not really practical...tough to find ammo today. Standard load was 196 grains at 22-2300 ft/sec with a practical range of 150yds, all that was needed for the woods and brush lands of Germany. Killed big game without blowing it up...remember, in Germany you can sell your game to butchers and restaurants.

https://imgur.com/1CbHpN1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT - 7 Hours

View next topic
View previous topic
Page 4 of 7
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
16ga.com Forum Index  ~  16ga. Guns

Post new topic   Reply to topic


 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB and NoseBleed v1.09