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<  16ga. Guns  ~  Iím considering a 16 gauge flintlock fowler
duckdup
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 110
Location: West-central Missouri

Shot size and the amount of shot or powder will be the way to vary your patterns. The types of wadding (tow, cards, fiber wads, felt wads, paper, etc..) also make huge differences in patterns.

If you have a place to shoot patterns and compare, you can make a real science of it.

www.trackofthewolf.com is a good source of supplies and books on black powder.

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An ounce of fives, the smell of nitro and paper hulls, wet gundog, and Hoppe's #9...
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Carlos
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 489
Location: Victoria BC Canada

Using loading technique to vary choke is old, and reasonably simple;

1. Slower powder, and less of it result in a tighter pattern. Up to 30% less than equal volumes of shot to powder. Don't get too stingy, as velocity is going to be less than with cartridge guns and much less than with smokeless. More than equal volumes is a waste of unburnt powder, recoil, flames and noise!

2. Larger shot tightens the pattern and smaller gives a wider spread. Be judicious as effectiveness is always paramount. Harder shot helps to tighten patterns.

3, Use a SQUARE LOAD! this doesn't have anything to do with powder, it means a shot column the same height as the bore diameter. More shot results in more shot deformation, and less reduces the effective payload too much. You don't have to get fancy, as most light field loads are already "square i. e.;12 ga. @ 1 1/8 oz, 16 ga @ 1 oz. and 20 at about 7/8 oz.

4. Protect the shot. In buckskinning, rules prevent any plastic in the load, but for anything else you can use a plastic one-piece wad to tighten patterns. Where plastic is barred, or you choose not to use it, shot protectors can be made from heavy paper. (In THE GUN by W.W. Greener, written over a century ago he mentions the "Swedish Wad' made from paper pulp as a double ended thimble. It acted as a shotcup and over powder wad in one piece. I doubt if they are available now, but the idea for the shape of plastic wads didn't just fall off a turnip truck.)

I didn't just invent this stuff, it is as old as shotgunning. I recall an old Gun Digest article by Francis Sell, Put and Take Choke, was the title I think. He was a 20 ga. lover and liked to use many of these tricks to make a 20 into a goose gun, or so he said.


Last edited by Carlos on Sat May 26, 2018 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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duckdup
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 110
Location: West-central Missouri

Fiber cups for restricted events are still available, but I haven't been to a true buck-skinner event for over a decade, not sure of current rules.

Carlos, would these be allowed?

http://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82

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An ounce of fives, the smell of nitro and paper hulls, wet gundog, and Hoppe's #9...
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 143
Location: York, PA

Thank you Carlos and Dukdup for your input. It sounds like something that is quite possible and maybe even fun to experiment to get the result I want.

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:07 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 143
Location: York, PA

Any thoughts on French grey vs blue for barrel?

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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duckdup
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 110
Location: West-central Missouri

18th century style would be "in the white" but it is what you like that matters if it is not part of a historical reenactment...

What style fowler are you having built?

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An ounce of fives, the smell of nitro and paper hulls, wet gundog, and Hoppe's #9...
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 143
Location: York, PA

Another (rather dumb) question, if I have been fitted for a modern shotgun, would these measurements be directly transferable to a flintlock?

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 143
Location: York, PA

duckdup wrote:
18th century style would be "in the white" but it is what you like that matters if it is not part of a historical reenactment...

What style fowler are you having built?


Itís an American style fowler. There is a link above to the builders website with a photo.

Iím going to go for French grey...

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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16'er
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:07 pm  Reply with quote
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Modern dimensions and a traditional brown finish on the barrel at least..
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duckdup
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 110
Location: West-central Missouri

More drop to the stock.

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rudyc
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:12 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 366
Location: S.E. Wisconsin

Got to love Fowlers, been hunting with one since the early 90's
Have built a couple and am in the process of building a 1/2 stock English gun with 2 barrels. 1 16ga smooth bore and a .58 rifle

[url=https://imgur.com/yctGnx2] [/url]

[url=https://imgur.com/fdec3Qa] [/url]

[url=https://imgur.com/UxhpSHd] [/url]

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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:39 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 143
Location: York, PA

rudyc wrote:
Got to love Fowlers, been hunting with one since the early 90's
Have built a couple and am in the process of building a 1/2 stock English gun with 2 barrels. 1 16ga smooth bore and a .58 rifle

[url=https://imgur.com/yctGnx2] [/url]

[url=https://imgur.com/fdec3Qa] [/url]

[url=https://imgur.com/UxhpSHd] [/url]

Thatís awesome! Iím going to ask my builder about two barrels...

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Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen
Browning Citori Superlite Feather 16 ga.
Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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Carlos
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 489
Location: Victoria BC Canada

To my list of tightening tricks, I must add, Harder Shot makes tighter patterns.

Duckdup; those fibre shot cups look neat.They would be much faster to reload with than making paper coin rolls. I'll bet the intent is to avoid plastic pollution on UK shooting grounds. Whether they would be legal in ML competition, I wouldn't know for sure as I have been out the game myself for quite some time. You would have to ask your governing body, or, just use them and argue your face off when challenged!
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:48 am  Reply with quote
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The "square load" advice is in a good direction, i.e. keep the shot column as short as possible to avoid damage to pellets on setback at ignition/launch, but the "square load" amounts listed for the gauges are not correct -- if they are "traditional advice", and my guess is they are, they are B.S. Square loads -- i.e. loads with height equal to the bore diameter -- are in proportion to the cube of the bore. Square loads in ounces of typical lead shot in the gauges/bores are as follows. These are fairly accurate for shot sizes up to 6 and maybe as large as 5 (packing factor is about 0.55), but the amount gets to be less the larger the shot and the smaller the bore. i.e. The "packing factor" becomes less as more space is lost because of the ratio of the size of the container to the size of the pellets. Here are the square loads:

10 = 1.29
12 = 1.07
16 = 0.80
20 = 0.64
28 = 0.46
.410 = 0.19

The square load is not a good way to compare shot damage on set-back. It is best to compare damage using shot charges of the same height. Pellet damage on setback is due to the inertia of the column, and the acceleration driving it. The pellets at the back of the column experience the greatest crush forces because they have the most mass in front of them. If columns have the same height, the same damage to the same proportion of the pellets is the same across all bore sizes. If, since typical muzzle velocities of all the gauges are similar, and we can assume the time history of acceleration (and hence the peak acceleration) provided by combustion to be about the same, then it's the number of pellets in front of any given pellet that governs the compression force it experiences -- i.e. it's the height of the shot column that determines set-back damage. Yes, though not a stretch, it is not an ideal assumption that peak accelerations are the same across all bores with loads producing the same velocities. However, any physicist out there who can provide a more relevant assumption is welcome to give it a try -- PM me. The upshot of all this is that for the same set-back damage, charges would be proportioned gauge-to-gauge, by the area of the bore, i.e. by the square of the bore, not the cube, as in the square load. Here are the loads by gauge/bore for shot columns of the same height, if all were compared to the height of a 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge load.

10 = 1.27
12 = 1.125
16 = 0.93
20 = 0.80
28 = 0.64
.410 = 0.36

This makes more sense and basically agrees with the amounts Carlos cites as traditional advice, but they are not square loads. These are loads that compare by shot column height to the height of a 1 1/8 ounce load in a 12 gauge bore. Some old advice says 1 ounce in the 12 is a better "square load", and in fact it is closer to square than a 1 1/8 ounce load. Loads of this height would be:

10 = 1.13
12 = 1.00
16 = 0.82
20 = 0.71
28 = 0.57
.410 = 0.32

So here's some food for thought on shot column behavior disruption due to combustion forces -- either set-back damage for soft shot, or from vibration excitation on very hard shot like steel, tungsten, etc. This also shows what an odd-ball the .410 is, and why it often is prone to pattern inconsistencies. We are loading it with up to twice the shot column height of the larger bores. Pretty hard not to expect some relatively heavy set-back damage compared to the larger bores, not to mention the greater proportion of bore-scrub damage a small bore produces. Looking at relative shot column heights also blows away the so-called "magic" of the 28 gauge and the "square load". Let's face it: we like the 28 and the 16 because they are great packages to carry for upland hunting, and in a properly sized gun, nice looking, too. The 20 is just as magical, but being almost entirely restricted to yellow shells is a huge aesthetic drawback Wink .

Cheers!
Tony
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:06 am  Reply with quote
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Location: Minneapolis

I think I deserve a kick in the pants for the hi-jack of the day, re. the previous post. I apologize. I'll transfer this to another new thread so we don't all exit on the big free-way of gab from this excellent topic on flintlock fowlers -- bet you didn't think I could remember that! Wink
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