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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

steve f,

I agree there are other German Gun makers who have good quality double guns for the money he wants to expend. Not all are very well known in the USA. Their quality varies however, the Pre WWII J.P. Sauer quality does not vary however.

Pine Creek/Dave

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Chicago
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:14 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: Northern Illinois

I have a composed pair of Sauers (12 & 20) that I started my SxS collection with that were made in the 50’s. It was the Royal model and mine came with Krupp barrels, and no cheek piece or sling swivels or eyes, simple arabesque engraving and were probably produced for export. I think the German guns are a highly overlooked value in the SxS market.

I long ago moved on to English guns before their prices escalated to current levels because I think they generally have better balance and lines than their American or European counterparts. Right now the English gun prices are depressed so it is a good time to consider one.

The Continental and American guns have some very fine examples, so the above comment is a generality and not meant to demean non English guns. I grew up shooting Fox and Smith guns my Grandfather owned and unfortunately they were never found after his death. I sort of stumbled into English guns 35 years ago after a friend insisted I use one of his for a week long hunt - immediately hooked.

Whether European, American or English many of the older guns have had the stocks cut down by 2” or more and this has thrown off their balance. However, a good Smith can tell you if bringing the stock to your desired length will restore the original balance.

An English gun that is frequently overlooked is the Army & Navy and their boxlocks can still be found close to your price range. I have attached a link to one for sale, unfortunately a 12 bore, asking $1,650. Back in the early 1900’s the Army & Navy boxlocks were made by Osbourne. During the same time period their sidelocks were all made by Webley & Scott, at least all of the models I have encountered and you can still find those with serviceable barrels for under $4,000. I have a composed pair of 16 ga Army & Navy sidelocks (1904 & 1907) and I have been shooting one of them for a very long time with no mechanical problems.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/army-navy-shotguns/army-and-navy-boxlock-12-bore.cfm?gun_id=100951689

Regardless of origin as long as they have good barrels, solid wood and are on face at purchase you can fix the cosmetics over time for a very nominal amount. Don’t let the age of a gun scare you off, you just need a good Smith familiar with Side by Sides to vet the gun before purchase.

With all of that said if I had the money I would make a trip across the pond and have one custom built, or possibly go to CSM for a new Fox.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Mike,

I do agree about the quality of the new CSMC Fox guns , very serious double guns. Great quality with real nice engraving by Roy. However the cost is steep and way out of his range at this time.

I agree with you about the Army & Navy double guns especially the Osbourne era guns, very well made.

One word of caution about Guns Smiths, lots of decent GS's out there. However if you are having work done on a Graded L.C. Smith double gun, I recommend you use a True Master Gun Maker, to do the work. I use Rich Painter and Freddie Brunner when ever something needs to be done, to my L.C.Smith Double guns. I am very picky about who works on my L.C. Smith Guns. Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson, does a great job of showing just why, in the Double Gun Video on L.C. Smith Shotguns. Rich Painter recently installed an original set of Pre 13 Krupp Barrels on one of my L.C. Smith double guns. Custom fitting another set of Krupp Barrels to a pre 13 L.C. Smith double gun is by no means a job for just any Gun Smith.

Freddie Brunner has done some incredible work on one of my 20 gauge double guns also. The stock was damaged severely at the breech join in a terrible fall. The gun needed some of his master's touch, to return the gun to pristine condition. He has advised me that if anything ever happens to damage that original French Walnut stock again, the stock well definitely need replacing.

My advise is to pick your Master Gun Maker carefully, the 3 I have mentioned here in the post are among the very best.

Pine Creek/Dave

Rich Painters incredible work, fitting a pristine set of 30" Krupp Barrels on one of our family 1913 L.C. Smith Double Guns, a work of expertise worthy of a true Master Gun Maker.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54332_800x600/] [/URL]

Rich's stock work on my 1889 L.C. Smith 20 Gauge, sleeved 28 #2 Gun, is also outstanding. His work on the old 1889 original L.C. Smith French Walnut stock returned the Hunter Arms #2 Gun to pristine condition.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54333_600x400/] [/URL]

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67galaxie
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2017
Posts: 226
Location: Valdosta GA

I would hold out for a fox sterlingworth in that range for a few months
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AKDan
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Location: Alaska

You may want to look at the 16 GA MAS Robust in Cabelas gun library, reference # 6160334.I have a Robust in 12 GA and i know a guy with one in 16 GA. Both have given good service. It has a straight grip and is choked full and extra full, and has 2 1/2" chambers, but if you are going to send the barrels in to be worked on anyway, those can be modified to your tastes. It is in your budget and if you live near a Cabela's, for a small fee they will ship it to your local store for you to inspect.
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NY16ga
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
Location: New York

Thanks everyone, this has been really helpful. I appreciate the folks who reached out directly too, lots of good advice and options I hadn't considered. I thought long and hard about holding out for an English gun but that could require a lot of patience and a slightly bigger budget (although not much) to get what I want. There's a tempting Midland on the Vintage Doubles site but its just a bit too much drop in the stock for me and I'd rather not have to mess with getting the stock bent. An English or Spanish BLNE will be next on my list though!

I was looking at that French gun at Cabela's but a Sauer seems like a better option for me and someone beat me to the punch on another French gun that caught my interest. Plus, I'm pretty sure Cabela's won't sell a gun to a New Yorker like me regardless of it being 100% legal. Anyway, I figure it makes sense to have a versatile German gun to match my versatile German dog so I'm looking into a couple different Sauers.
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old colonel
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:45 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 605
Location: Topeka, Kansas

Concur that French and Belgian guns offer some excellent bargains for shooters.

Note you must educate yourself on evaluating SXS guns. First terms of mechanical standing, wall thickness etc, second in terms of what fits you and your hunting needs best.

If you have not shot SXS guns much get a cheaper gun first and play with it a bit. It will either seed your future addiction or teach you what you should have done differently.

Consider going onto guns international and search through their 16ga grouping from lowest price up. In the $1500-2000 range there are some great boxlock options

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-16-gauge.cfm?cat_id=1364&rct=379&start_row=51

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Griffon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 429
Location: Maine

Ditto on Brydogs post. Keep saving and buy a decent quality gun then you won't be looking for a bargain gun gunsmith and waiting 4-8 months to get your gun fixed.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Griffon,

I agree with you all most all my fire arms are actually seriously high quality, granted many have been passed down thru the generations in our family. I always recommend saving enough money and then purchasing a fire arm that is made on a high enough quality basis to pass down thru the family for many life times.

The exception I make to this rule is the mid level shotguns I purchase for Gun Dog Training. I purchased these shotguns just as non-sport hunting work type tools, for my Grouse Dog Training business and entry level client Grouse shooting instruction. Make no mistake about it however, these mid level guns are of nice enough quality to hunt with for many many life times, if cared for properly.

The new 28 Gauge O/U Savage/Stevens 555 and the Silver Reserve II 28/20 Combo-Gun, are these mid level work type tools. The money I expended for them was IMO quite small compared to my Graded L.C. Smith, LeFever and J.P Sauer Double Guns. If I lay them down in the wet grass or even the mud while working with a pup, it's not a big deal to me. Sense I am pretty much retired now and seldom us a helper while training, I wanted a couple mid level guns to use as training tool.

In reality the number of shells run thru these mid-Level guns will be minimal in my case. If or when I put some scratches or dings on these particular fire arms, it will not matter to me very much. In reality these mid level shotguns have come a long way in the past 8 years, they are no longer the low level problem type guns they use to be.

However IMO a man or lady who only owns a few or even just one Shotgun, should always save his/her money, and purchase a high quality shotgun..

Pine Creek/Dave

Our Quality Vintage Shotguns we no longer use as Gun Dog Training Tools.

My Great Grandfather's Special Ordered, one of a kind 1889 #2E L.C. Smith 20 Gauge, Briley Sleeved for 28, with Best Quality Damascus Barrels and Kraus Woodcock Engraving. - (Hunter Arms) L.C. Smith only made one.

Presently I am looking for set of pre 1913 L.C. Smith 20 Gauge Barrels to make this #2 Gun a 2 Barrel Set. Any knowledge on a set for sale, would be greatly appreciated.


[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54353_800x600/] [/URL]

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Griffon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 429
Location: Maine

I'm not a collector of high grade guns. Purchasing guns that sit in a cabinet or get used once a year for fear of damaging is not my interest. My thought was save up 3K 4K 5K for a nice useable modern/semi modern gun. We all have our preferences. I shoot a lot clays and hunt. I'm working on 15000 rounds through my RBL 16 without a hitch. Is it a collectible, not in my lifetime. But I enjoy shooting it and it's dependable. CSMC has excellent service and turn around. Your old guns wouldn't hold up to that use. 100 year old guns that were handled and stored by who knows what means seem to resort in "do you know a good gunsmith" post.
Bargain guns, if you fire 5 boxes a year through it they will probably last you, but bargain guns are bargain guns. You get what you pay for.

So you've got to decide maximum budget.
Intended use
Amount to be used.
Will it be a family heirloom.

My guns will be well used by the time they get passed down to the grandsons. Will they be worth anything, probably nothing more than some good memories of days afield. Personal preference. Make sure it fits, buy what you like. No pics to show.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Griffon,

CSMC makes some pretty fine guns, definitely a pass thru the ages modern double gun. However so did L.C. Smith, and some other American gun makers also. I have a 1900 made L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade Double Gun that has been line shot more times than most modern guns ever will be, both on life Pigeon Shoots and clays also. The gun is still in perfect shape. No matter the era a man should always purchase a high quality fire arm. No matter how much the gun is used, if the gun is taken care of properly and the quality is built in, the gun is for the most part unaffected, by usage.

We will see how well the new modern guns stack up quality wise, when they are constantly used and become 100 years old, your Grandson should be able to use them just as you have, if the Engineering & Quality are built into the gun. The modern guns are for the most part missing the Brown Rotary Bolt Engineering, mostly due to the cost of production. We will see as time progresses, if the new more modern double guns, shoot loose or not. Only time and usage will tell if they are real quality fire arms.

Pine Creek/Dave

My Great Grandfather's L.C. Smith Pigeon Grade 12 Gauge, with pre production Beaver Tail Fore-End, used for generations. The only part replaced on this quality fire arm was the recoil pad, the original leather one degraded and was replaced in the late 60's.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/54367_800x600/] [/URL]

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