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kgb
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Nebraska

Very Happy

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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:38 am  Reply with quote
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Hey, what can I say?

Tony clearly exhibits the genius of recognizing genius. Thanks, Tony!

I think I'll start charging you guys a fee to shoot and/or hunt with me.

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pnDAHSiZj] [/URL]
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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:56 am  Reply with quote
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JNW wrote:
Tony,
Have you noticed the number of “this is the last shotgun I ever need to own” posts by Dave? Sensible for a 16 gauge addict!
Jeff


pure genius
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:15 am  Reply with quote
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Sensible and 16 gauge should never be used in the same sentence.

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Nasty-G
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Apr 2013
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I bought my 5th last shotgun last fall !!
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:35 am  Reply with quote
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I wouldn't say never, Dogchaser37, but most folks I know certainly do think the 16 is a senseless choice. But we few, we dedicated and merry band of odd fellows, have different values -- and we know ours are better!
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

I believe the concept of square load continues to have wide spread acceptance because it is the maximum arrangement of volume for surface area. This is the same whether determining shotshell loads, internal combustion engine displacement or even surface area to perimeter. Check the bore and stroke of high performance auto engines. They are at or very near the same diameter bore and piston travel. for land development, a square lot will have the most square feet of area for any given perimeter. So for shotshells a larger bore will have a flatter payload while a small bore will have a taller load. I'm guessing that if Goldilocks was looking for a shotgun instead of a bed, she would have picked the 16 ga.
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:12 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

Double post


Last edited by AmericanMeet on Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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byrdog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:41 am  Reply with quote
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when I first learned about the "square load" and the fact that in a 16ga it is one ounce, my take was that the load is the same weight as the sphere of lead cast at that gauge. so if the 16ga square load was 1/16 of a pound,an ounce, of lead that the square load for a 12ga would be 1/12 of a pound or 1.33 oz, a 10 ga square load would be 1/10 of a pound or 1.6 oz and so on.
I loaded some of these in the available gauges and at 1200fps they are nice shooting field loads.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:29 am  Reply with quote
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AmericanMeet -- I think you mean the square load is the minimum area of just the sides (not the ends) of a cylinder of a given volume (i.e. a given charge of shot). If you do the math, you will find this is, in fact, not true. The Volume of a cylinder is 1/4 Pi x the square of diameter x the height. The Area of the cylindrical side of a cylinder (the scrub area, if you will) is Pi x the diameter x the height. The ratio of Area of the side of a cylinder to it's Volume is 4 over the diameter. As you can see, the height falls out and the ratio of Area to Volume depends only on the diameter, and inversely so. That means as the diameter of a cylinder gets larger, the side area of it gets smaller. The area approaches zero as the diameter approaches infinity. So there is definitely no magic "minimum" side area for a given volume.

For a given bore size, the same fraction of pellets would experience bore contact, regardless of column height (i.e. shot charge weight!). If you want to decrease the fraction of pellets experiencing bore contact for a given volume of shot, you'd have to increase bore size. For a given volume of shot, bore diameter is the only thing influencing the fraction of pellets contacting the bore.

Bore scrub is not the biggest problem in creating an effective pattern. Shot crush on setback is the bigger problem, especially with today's excellent isolation of the shot from the barrel surface, so shot column height is the better criteria. In fact, with today's components, and probably yesterday's as well, neither of these issues, scrub or setback are particularly big problems. The big problem is how much tensile stress the barrel material can withstand (manifested as circumferential stress in the barrel as it functions as a pressure vessel). That is the reason for pressure limits, typically set by SAAMI or a proof house. Note that pressure limits are generally higher for the smaller gauges. That means the barrel must be thicker at the high pressure end -- the chamber and the first few inches. There is no problem doing this as the bore gets smaller, as the barrels will still be light enough to make a handy gun anyway. This is allowed to let the small gauges shoot proportionately higher volumes of shot than bore proportion alone would dictate (the square load, for instance).

If barrels of all gauges were restricted to the same peak pressures, and one could assume that for the same muzzle velocities the peak pressures would be the same (see my earlier post on the practicality of this assumption), then maximum load of shot that could be fired from a given bore size would be the same height accross all gauges. Pressure is force over area. Acceleration is Force/Mass. Mass is area of the bore times height of the shot charge. If pressure is the same in all bores, acceleration force is proportional to bore squared (area) and acceleration will be the same if the mass of the shot charge is proportional to bore squared. This means for a given velocity and for a given pressure limit, the maximum height of the shot columns will be equal for all bores. This means that the maximum shot charge weight is proportional to the square of the bore (proportional to the the area). That's why it is more significant to compare the amount of shot that can be fired from various bores by shot column height in the shell, and not by something like the fabled square load. In reality, because powder manufacturers can tailor propellants, and because SAAMI and the proof houses allow greater pressures for the smaller bores, we can even produce loads for the smaller bores with shot charges greater than arrived at by this simplistic but realistic bore area proportion.

If you truly believed the square load was the ticket to success would you like to be restricted to about 7/16 ounce in a 28 gauge? Do you think the cartridge manufacturers are pulling the wool over your eyes because they won't load and sell a 7/16 ounce load in the 28, or basically much of anything close to a square load in almost any gauge smaller than the 12?? Thank goodness for handloading, because you can go out and do the experiments yourself. Give it a try. You'll find you're letting a vast amount of the capability of your gun remain untapped.
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Carlos
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 602
Location: Victoria BC Canada

When I mentioned "square load", the original post was a question about a 16 gauge Fowler with Flint ignition. We were discussing technology that was Two Centuries old, or more. Boiling it down, the O/P wanted advice on tightening patterns in a cylinder bore, which was all that was available until well into the 19th C, and chokes are impractical for a muzzle loader in any event.

My advice was to stay moderate to minimize shot deformation, but also with an eye to having a killing payload.

Thinking about "square load", I first heard about it in writings by Gough Thomas, an English gunwriter of the mid 20th century, but I suspect it was created during earlier discussions in England about the relative merits of a 12 gauge gamegun made for lighter ammunition as opposed to the 16 gauge as favoured on the Continent. So perhaps the term is dated, and only truly describing a 12 gauge loaded with a 16 gauge load.

NOTE: Gough Thomas (Garwood) was an engineer!

On another forum, not so technically minded, I was constantly confronted by know-it-alls, new to shotgunning and black powder, who thought square load meant equal volumes of shot and powder. It was OK if it prevented grossly over loaded ammo, but not so when it resulted in noise, flames, recoil and blown patterns in the popular sawdoff barkeep guns that were, and unaccountably still are in favour. Conditioned by this experience, I brought the term into the discussion to caution against the error.


Last edited by Carlos on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dave In AZ
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
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Two intelligent posts from maxsmoke and carlos, pleasure to read.
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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MaximumSmoke wrote:
-- I think


It's nice to know that you think that you think.
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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:55 pm  Reply with quote
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I've tried to shoot square loads in my 16, but they won't fit in the round chamber. Rolling Eyes

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JNW
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Snappy repartee such as that employed by Mr. Smoke are why engineers are always so much fun at parties! I enjoyed your post immensely.
I just got back from shooting some 5-stand and wobble skeet. I must say, I shot fabulous. 24/25 for each round. I hit targets really, really hard. The 5-stand set up was stiff. However, I wasn’t shooting a gun with an over bored barrel, the forcing cone has not been lengthened, I was not shooting a square load, my gun weighed 122 times the weight of my payload, it’s blue (not rust blued - it’s BLUE) and since I forgot my choke tubes again I was grossly over choked for skeet and I shot everything with 7.5 shot.

I know and understand an enormous amount of shotgun arcana and truly enjoy it, but it doesn’t mean squat if you can’t shoot. If you can shoot, it means very little. We talk a lot about equipment, but relatively little about application of our guns and loads. I think this is just human nature. It’s fun to discuss the technical aspects of our sport, and there is merit to paying attention to these things. But, there’s nothing better than shooting well. Please continue to enjoy all aspects of this wonderful hobby.
Regards,
Jeff


Last edited by JNW on Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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