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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:25 am  Reply with quote
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What is the purpose of an English style stock?

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Dogchaser37 wrote:
What is the purpose of an English style stock?


Esthetic satisfaction and imagined handling properties.

I like the look of a SG and especially with DTs on an O/U...I will only say that the cross-section of a grip can be too small...O/U or SxS.

I had a Parker SS Special and the grip, slightly diamond-shaped, was far too dainty for my liking.

A SG can be swell and it can present a scattergun with a look well out of proportion.

A SG simply for the sake of having a SG is often money wasted.
I would always advise waiting and trying before sawdust flies in order to imagine a miracle transformation.
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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Dogchaser37 wrote:
What is the purpose of an English style stock?


The question is better answered by asking another question. What is the purpose of each hand in the firing process? The forehand "points" the gun at the target. The trigger hand has two functions, depending on the type of shooting involved. One function is to hold the gun securely against the shoulder. In those cases a pistol grip provides purchase for the hand to pull the gun tight. This is common in high gun sports where the shooter is in position (head down on stock) prior to release of target. The second function is for the trigger hand to raise the gun to shoulder level as the face is turned to meet the stock and the stock is placed without rearward pull against the shoulder. The direction the grip hand is moving the gun is up. the straight stock provides for uni-directional lift. This allows for the fastest means of raising the gun from "low-gun" to firing position but since the gun is not pulled back into the shoulder (as in trap) gun fit is of paramount importance.
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:31 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
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double deleted


Last edited by AmericanMeet on Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:26 am  Reply with quote
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Straight stocks, at least to me, seem like a bit of a contradiction . They are normally associated with lighter shotguns w/double triggers.

The double trigger stuff......I can see that, as the straight stock would allow that little bit of hand movement needed to get to either trigger easier than a pistol grip stock would allow.

A straight stock would seem like it would transmit more recoil than a pistol grip(the contradiction on a light shotgun).

Faster mount? This seems more like of a matter of preference. How much faster? It would be very difficult to define that.

With any shotgun mount, the shotgun is supposed to be brought up level, with the butt only requiring a slight rearward movement into the shoulder pocket. I suppose with any type of stock that part is on the shooter to practice the mount.

There has also been the line of thinking that both hands need to be inline for the best pointing........that doesn't seem to be the case with current stock designs.

I think they are elegant, especially on a S x S. Pistol grips on S x S's look out of place and make the shotgun lose it's slender lines.

Yeah, I know, I am not a great fan of S x S's but I do appreciate them.....I just can't shoot them.

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JNW
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Posts: 1358
Location: Twin Cities, MN

English grips feel faster to some people, they are lovely to carry and they look really cool. I don’t need any more justification then their estheic appeal. These are toys and they’re supposed to give us pleasure. Here’s a couple o/u with straight grips.

The Beretta has a teeny bit of a perch belly to it.
The gun in the middle has a Woodward grip which is, in my mind, the best compromise giving you the feel of a straight grip, the added control of a pistol grip and it looks nifty.

That gun is a 16 gauge.
I tried to find someone to convert a Citori to double triggers and failed. A DT, straight grip 16 ga Citori would be a pretty fun gun to own. Get that belt sander fired up and go to work!
Jeff
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:46 am  Reply with quote
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I really like the wood on the Beretta.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

I find it difficult to believe the old, old story that a SG allows for the better manipulation of DTs.
Surely to mercy most folks have the finger dexterity to move a finger in lieu of repositioning the entire hand for each tap of the trigger.
Having used several grip patterns with DTs and STs, I call Armour’s Best.
That old mama’s tale needs put to rest.

Sometimes, SGs simply look the part or we like them.....why the need to overthink the the long-running play?
Adapt or adjust.....neither is a sin.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:09 pm  Reply with quote
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You know......most of this shotgun stuff is what we like, what feels best, what we think we need,,,,,,,in other words preferences,

What's best for each of us? Most of us aren't good enough shooters to know what that is.

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JNW
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
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What Mark said is correct - most of this is just preference. I agree that one does not need a straight stock to shoot double triggers. I have pistol grip DT guns that work just fine. There is a downside to a straight grip. They can slide through your grip hand and give you more recoil. This is especially true on dainty sidelock guns. Just because they can make a grip really small doesn’t mean they should.
Jeff
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Dannyboy175
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 162
Location: York, PA

I’ve had a16 citori upland special and now a superlite feather in 16. I like them both , but wouldn’t convert a pistol grip or round knob stock to English. You should be able to find a used 16 citori iwith an English stock.

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Merkel 1620 (straight stock and single trigger)
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Tedthesurveyor
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 64
Location: Northern WI

I like the straight grip for hunting efficiencies (again in my mind and preference), and here's why.

90% of my shooting is done at grouse in heavy cover where they live, last year over 60 outings. I really pay close attention to both my own movements and gun handling and that of my cohorts. The first and most important reason is safety. I want to make sure that the excitement of a dog on point doesn't have my fellow hunter's finger entering the trigger guard prematurely or toggling the safety until the bird is in the air. I like to see the muzzle off to the side of the dog, not forward toward it, and I don't mind pushing pause on a hunt to remind my pals of that. In watching this closely, I've noticed that I'm at the most efficient when I control the gun with my front hand, the barrels somewhat vertical to weave through the vertical young aspen for example and I follow the gun with my face turning my torso and shoulders, following the front hand and gun to slide through the cover quickly, but under control. This style of carry as opposed to forward and horizontal to the ground, pointing the gun, albeit innocently, toward the general direction of the dog, in my opinion is safer. In keeping my trigger hand loosely on the stock it becomes free to push brush out of the way instead of using the gun as a "pry bar". Approaching a dog on point quickly and efficiently, I've found the straight grip removes one less bump or protrusion to catch on brush. My forward hand is ready to push the gun straight forward on the flush as it is carrying the weight and the rear hand slides into position as my eyes lock on the bird, the gun is mounted, the cheek touches and BANG, or BANG BANG.

There's my $.02.

Plus the lines are just so sexy, like a tall brunette with a long form-fitting dress.

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:32 pm  Reply with quote
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Tramroad28 -- I did not intend to imply there needed to be a repositioning of the hand during trigger switching in a DT gun. By freedom allowed by the straight grip, I meant it allows one to place his hand in a position where it is easy to move the finger from one trigger to the other without re-gripping. If the grip radius is too tight with some pistol grips, one is confined to a position that doesn't allow the freedom to switch triggers easily without re-gripping -- e.g. My old Fox Sterlingworth, even for my not very large hands. Open pistol grips like the true POW, or the Woodward as JNW has, work great with DT's. Some bag-gripped stocks, like those found on the later versions of Olin Kodensha Winchesters, the Models 101 and 23 would not work very well for DT's -- radius is just too tight and grip is just too vertical. As far as I know, those guns were never made with DT's, but I mention them as examples of what looks like a more relaxed grip at first sight, but isn't. Browning's bag-gripped Superposed was made for DT's, is more "open", and does work.

By the way, I seldom see a shooter of a straight grip gun holding the elbow of his trigger hand arm up high (ear level) with arm parallel to the ground or even higher. Recoil usually bangs up the trigger hand middle finger of the high elbow shooter because the grip necessary to hold the elbow that high turns the middle finger into position to be injured against the trigger guard, and weakens the grip so that recoil moves the gun more in the hand -- a double whammy -- and those folks either stop shooting straight grips, or change their technique. There are always a few die-hards using those ugly rubber bumpers behind the trigger guard, or bandaging the finger to cushion it, trying to keep the skin on, but those "fixes" are generally a poor compromise.

Wingshooters need to lower the elbow so that the arm of the trigger hand is about 45 degrees to horizontal. The arm of the lead or pointing hand (the left one for a right-handed shooter) should also be down around that 45 degree position, by the way. High elbows are for shooting a rifle from a prone position or flat from a bench; cases in which there is no clearance below the rifle, and little to no vertical support is necessary, as the gun is resting on something connected to ground. High elbows are not for wingshooting, which needs an "offhand" mount to support vertical positioning variation as the gun is moved along the target line. I'm not saying it takes a straight grip to enforce the arm position most favorable for shotgun work, but while one can get away with high elbows with a typical pistol gripped gun, he usually pays a price for it with a straight grip. In my opinion, shooting a straight-gripped gun properly instills good mount fundamentals, which lead to better wingshooting technique with any gun.

I'm quite sure that's not why the straight grip was invented, though. I believe it was simply an evolution from early firearms which were a sort of hand cannon wielded a bit like the swords they replaced. Most, and probably all early guns were "handguns", not shoulder-fired. Even early pistols were basically straight-gripped. As firearms developed and became more powerful, with greater range and accuracy potential, turning the grip down into what we now know as the pistol grip enabled the rifle and pistol shooter to have a stronger more stable and ergonomic grip, the better also to withstand heavy recoil. While there were plenty of repeating firearms before WWI, that war whetted the appetite of the American shooting public for powerful, accurate, repeating sporting firearms. Consequently, repeating shotguns and magazine rifles, plus "magnum-itis", made the pistol grip more useful and popular. That's my guess as to how things evolved.

Tony
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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3169
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Three popular variations of grips- a matter of preference and use.




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tramroad28
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

An “Etchen” grip, for example, would not be best with DTs, I agree, but the fact remains that for very many folks, a SG is thought advantagous with DTs....I think at best and at most a SG is an esthetically pleasing accompaniment to DTs.

Thankfully, I seldom hunt with others but I will look to see how many hold a high elbow as a woodcock lifts or pheasant heads outta Dodge when next that happens.
Does anyone know who sells a protractor holster, leather of course. Very Happy

I think “rubber bumpers” can be from specifics of gun design, hunter experience or heavy loads more than a SG itself but, ok.
I will say that a SG can be, at times, more uncomfortable to carry, which goes a bit against the grain of those who feel a SG fits an image they wish to project in a scattergun choice.

I would not be surprised to find that rifle use dictates a bit into scattergun design....it certainly can for scattergun use.

All of which is interesting but preference still holds sway...which is really why so many of us fit and file our guns to imagined best-ness.
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