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16crazy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 240

Last weekend I shot a round of clays with the following load:
3/4 ounce shot
16 grains Green Dot
DR16 wad
Fiocchi 616 primer
Black Rem hull

About 1 out of every 7 or 8 shots sounded weak, so much so that my 12 year old nephew asked what was wrong with the gun.

I started trouble shooting and ruled out:

1) light drops from an under filled powder bottle as I always keep it 1/2 full or more

2) bad powder as the lot worked just fine in other loads

3) bad load as the combination is pretty well though of here

I thought I ruled out the Fiocchi primer as I have used over 10,000 of them in all loads for 12, 16,and 20 gauge shells and in a wide range of temps. However I found some posts in other resources of reports of inconsistent ignition with Fiocchi primers.

Any thoughts here?
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skeettx
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:37 pm  Reply with quote
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A bit light on the powder,
borderline on enough pressure to ignite the powder
Try going up ONE grain and report back please
Mike

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
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Location: Mn.

What Mike said. But if I was a betting man, your loader has gradually come out of adjustment and your crimps aren't deep enough.

When Kevin first started Downrange I had some issues with his 7/8 oz. wads F616 primers and Promo powder in the winter. Talking twenties below zero. Spent quite a lot of time working with him and I ended up going back to W209 or Federal primers and Clays in the winter.

First thing he had me do was measure crimp depth. Accurately! He had me cut a notch in my RCBS calipers that I bought in the 70's. Measure shell overall lenght then slip the notch over the lip of the shell to measure actual crimp depth.



You want around .050 crimp depth. Too much is bad, too little is bad.



If your crimps aren't deep enough you will not have enough pressure.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/effect-crimp-depth-shotshells

Got good enough Kevin would call me up when someone was having similar problems and ask if I could test XX powders with YY hulls and ZZ primers. Even though he has a pressure gun at the time he didn't have an industrial freezer that could down into the 20's below zero that some of us shoot in. Before he would hang up he would say crimp deep....

Even though it isn't that cold right now same rules of science apply. Crimp deep, but not too deep. I shoot for .055
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double vision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:48 am  Reply with quote
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Good stuff, Cold Iron.
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:31 am  Reply with quote
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Fiocchi primers are OK when it is warm out, I wouldn't think that they are the issue with this load.

My thought would be to set the crimp depth a bit deeper and increase the powder by a grain or two as other folks have suggested.

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Dave Erickson please don't take this as a criticism against you or what you have posted.

This is only my opinion , but it is backed up by a fair number of successful published loads using lead, steel and bismuth, with many different payloads and powders.

This crimp depth issue comes up now and again.

I disagree with a 0.055" crimp depth. 0.055" should be the bare minimum crimp depth for any 10, 12 or 16 gauge reload. It is my opinion that if you really want good loads, the depth should be the old standard of the thickness of a dime which was 0.0625". Measure some factory crimp depths, not too many will be 0.055".

Crimp depth is important and a well formed crimp at the right depth is probably the single most important part of consistent reloads, once you have the right mix of components.

I do know that both Hodgdon and Tom Armbrust have published charts of what happens as you increase crimp depth. These charts, if taken literally, are misleading, as not every load is going to increase pressure the same way.

Any load that I have tested or had tested by a lab, and this goes back into the 1990's, have always been set at 0.060" to 0.065".

No 12 or 16 gauge reload comes off my machines at 0.055". Always between 0.060" and 0.070".

I think a perfect example of a good crimp are on Federal Gold Medal target loads. They really roll that radius locking in the crimp. AA's are similar as are STS's. The RIO brand is similar. Without some crimp depth you can't roll over that shoulder and lock in the crimp. I have a brand new RIO Elite shell sitting in front of me the depth is 0.070". They don't put 0.070" crimps on new shells for no reason.

YMMV and I hope that no one takes offense to this post as I offer it only as food for thought and not an absolute must.

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double vision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:14 am  Reply with quote
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Mark, you must be referring to Cold Iron?

I'm nowhere near as sophisticated as either of you when it comes to reloading! lol!
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:56 am  Reply with quote
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Dave,

Yes I was, somehow I.........old age kicks in again!!

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double vision
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:03 am  Reply with quote
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Old age slips...tell me about it! I'm getting terrible!
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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
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Mark no offense taken Very Happy

However the .055 is a standard, and eliminates one more variable out of the equation. Kevin at Downrange does all his pressure testing with .055 crimps so you know that if you do the same with the same components than pressure should be the same.
<======================>
http://www.downrangemfg.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93&Itemid=157

Q: What is the correct crimp depth for a shotgun shell?
A: The correct crimp depth for a 12 gauge shell is .055 deep.

Q: Why is crimp depth important?
A: A crimp depth of .055 deep will keep a consistent chamber pressure, and make for a more stable reload in all temperatures.
<======================>
Also Hodgdon does the same .055 depth

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/effect-crimp-depth-shotshells

A crimp that is too tight (too deep) can increase ballistics more than what is expected from the reload data. All shotshell reload data on the Hodgdon website has been created using an average crimp depth of 0.055"
<======================>
Not sure who or where the standard came from. I know Don Zutz always crimped to .055 when he had Federal do his testing. And always heard the thickness of a dime also.

But have you ever tried to place a dime inside the crimp of a 12 ga. shell let alone a 16?! Not going to happen. However according to the US Mint a dime should measure .053 so pretty close....

But yeah if someone has already crimped outside the standard .055 depth and had the shells pressure tested than that is the data for that load. And crimp depth a component of that data.
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pumpgun
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:13 pm  Reply with quote
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FWIW, I've gotten off sounding reports with DR16s in a Rem. 1100, and M31, both of which are slightly overbore at .672 or so. They work fine in my M12s, which are .662
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:45 pm  Reply with quote
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Cold Iron,

There is no standard for crimp depth in any SAAMI standard. There are also no standards for reloads in the SAAMI standards, with the exception being, to use SAAMI MAP for each gauge as the absolute maximum chamber pressure. So each lab has to come up with it's own standards and procedures, crimp depth being one.

Hodgdon has come up with THEIR standard crimp depth as being 0.055" and that is associated with their loading data. I am not sure if other powder companies use 0.055" crimp depth. Since DownRange doesn't provide loading data I am not sure why they use 0.055" unless it is monkey see monkey do.

Personally I believe 0.055" to be too shallow for the reasons I stated.

Also, 0.055" is fine for a load that uses a target powder, but what happens when it gets cold and you are using Blue Dot or Steel? You will find that performance will drop off more than a similar load with a deeper crimp.

I don't see any advantage to a load with a crimp deeper than 0.070", because now you will begin to encroach on the amount of powder you can use, which in turn will affect velocity.

I understand that a deeper crimp will raise chamber pressure, but that doesn't automatically mean that you turn a certain reload into a barrel shredding grenade.

Folks in general are afraid of pressure....pressure is your friend when it comes to shotshells....and well formed crimps with a depth of 0.060" to 0.070" can make a better reload.

Like I said my ideas are food for thought.

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16crazy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
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Obligations of a great variety will not allow me to test loads until next weekend.

I am going to try a 15 shells of each of the following:
1) same load
2) with 16 grains of Green Dot but a Federal primer
3) 17 grains GD and FIO primer

Will post results at that time. Thanks for all the posts.


Also regarding crimp..mine measured out at .055 after reloading but I measured some that had sat for a few weeks and they seemed to measure less.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:28 pm  Reply with quote



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agree with ya 100% Mark - I wonder if an occasional cocked wad with that tight case also . I really make sure I get that inny curve on the finished case for 2 reasons - 1 as you say for a firm crimp , and 2 , shoot a lot of old pumps , iE high standards . They cycle so clean if you don't have an out curve on the leading edge . they catch on the extractor cuts just like metal rims do on double guns .

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JNW
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Jun 2010
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I played around with “other” primers for several years trying to save a few dollars. After some angst I started using Federal 209As for my light 7/8 oz 12 gauge loads to get good ignition and Win 209s for everything else. One of the best reloading decisions I’ve ever made.
Jeff
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:00 am  Reply with quote
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JNW,

I agree!!

Except for one load that I use a CCI209 in, all of the rest use Win 209 or Fed 209A's.

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