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Woody402
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 286
Location: Finger Lakes

I’m looking for a low pressure bismith load for 2 1/2 cheddite hulls. I want to load up a box or two to use in my fox for ducks.

I have a decent selection of powders and wads to choose from. Thanks.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

2 1/2" non-toxic loads are a conundrum. There is a dearth of data for them, yet there is a growing need for loads of this type. You could develop some loads yourself and send them to Tom Armbrust for testing.

Instead, consider ordering some 2 1/2" bismuth shells from RST: http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/174-16-Ga-2-1/2-Bismuth-Vel-1200-7/8-oz-Box.aspx

Yes they are costly, but a couple pressure test trials would run substantially more. We have successfully done so with ITX-10 using Alliant Steel powder and VP80 wads, but our results are not valid for bismuth.

So considering the potential risk of a bulge or worse in your Fox, a couple boxes of RST bismuth shells might be a wise investment.

Good Luck,

B.
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Woody402
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 286
Location: Finger Lakes

I have a few boxes of the RST bismith loads. Bought them at Hausmanns. I was Hoping to find a load I can Load up myself also since i have some bismith shot.
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old colonel
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Note you can use 2 3/4 data in a 2 1/2 if it fits (1 oz loads often do, especially if you roll crimp)

So look at 2 3/4 Bismuth loads.

Some to consider

Win poly hull, 7/8 oz bismuth, 22.0 grains SR7625, REM STS primer, TC16 wad, 7,400PSI, 1260 FPS

Win poly hull, 1 oz bismuth, 26.6 grains Longshotb, REM STS primer, SP16 wad, 7,700PSI, 1300 FPS

I normally substitute the R16 wad, but the published data calls for SP16

I also cut the shell down and rollcrimp it.

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Topeka, KS
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Woody402
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 286
Location: Finger Lakes

old colonel wrote:
Note you can use 2 3/4 data in a 2 1/2 if it fits (1 oz loads often do, especially if you roll crimp)

So look at 2 3/4 Bismuth loads.

Some to consider

Win poly hull, 7/8 oz bismuth, 22.0 grains SR7625, REM STS primer, TC16 wad, 7,400PSI, 1260 FPS

Win poly hull, 1 oz bismuth, 26.6 grains Longshotb, REM STS primer, SP16 wad, 7,700PSI, 1300 FPS

I normally substitute the R16 wad, but the published data calls for SP16

I also cut the shell down and rollcrimp it.



The only Winchester hulls I have are new ones. Are they poly hulls? I have a lot more federal,fiocchi,cheddite hulls.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Woody402 wrote:
old colonel wrote:
Note you can use 2 3/4 data in a 2 1/2 if it fits (1 oz loads often do, especially if you roll crimp)

So look at 2 3/4 Bismuth loads.

Some to consider

Win poly hull, 7/8 oz bismuth, 22.0 grains SR7625, REM STS primer, TC16 wad, 7,400PSI, 1260 FPS

Win poly hull, 1 oz bismuth, 26.6 grains Longshotb, REM STS primer, SP16 wad, 7,700PSI, 1300 FPS

I normally substitute the R16 wad, but the published data calls for SP16

I also cut the shell down and rollcrimp it.



The only Winchester hulls I have are new ones. Are they poly hulls? I have a lot more federal,fiocchi,cheddite hulls.

The Winchester Polyformed hulls are the older Made In USA 16 gauge shells, usually they were labeled Upland on the box and took a standard U.S. 209 primer. Winchester hasn't made 16 gauge shells in the U.S. for around 20 years now.
The 16 gauge shells available now and for many years prior are labeled Made in Australia on the side of the box, they use a Cheddite hull for them.
Usually the older data that has been available stating Polyformed hull is for the older Made in USA hulls, with data that just states Winchester plastic base hull it's basically a guess as to which hulls they are referring to. I usually try and cross reference 16 gauge Cheddite hull data with Winchester 16 gauge plastic base data and see if it's close for a given recipe.
Best I can tell you
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mcrewz
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:42 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

This is a lead load from the Alliant website. It looks like a good place to start for developing a Bismuth low pressure load. A shot weight reduction to 7/8 or 1 oz, a CCI209M, and a roll crimp would surely turn in a low pressure load, but would need to be tested of course

Federal 2 3/4" hull (lead)
1 1/8 1,295 Fed 209A Blue Dot SP 16 32 8,600
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mcrewz
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois

Is there a rule of thumb as to how much substituting bismuth in a lead load will raise pressures? If I remember right Nice Shot is about 500-1000PSI increase vs lead, but Nice Shot is also more dense than bismuth.

Mike
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

mcrewz wrote:
This is a lead load from the Alliant website. It looks like a good place to start for developing a Bismuth low pressure load. A shot weight reduction to 7/8 or 1 oz, a CCI209M, and a roll crimp would surely turn in a low pressure load, but would need to be tested of course

Federal 2 3/4" hull (lead)
1 1/8 1,295 Fed 209A Blue Dot SP 16 32 8,600

Only problem there is Lymans 5th lists the same 1 1/8 oz lead load except powder is 28.5 grains Blue Dot for 1220 fps @ 8400 psi, so who's correct ?
Lyman lists for Bismuth shot
Federal 16 gauge hull
Federal 209A primer
26 grains Blue Dot
SP-16 wad
1 1/8 oz Bismuth shot
1220 @ 9000 psi
Using the 28.5 grain powder lead load that's an 8.5% powder reduction, with the 32 grain powder lead load that's an 18.5% powder reduction and that still gets you a bit higher pressure than either lead load is listed at.
That's the major problem, where do you start???
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Dogchaser37
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:24 am  Reply with quote
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Replacing lead with Bismuth, the rule of thumb is 1/8 oz. less Bismuth than lead. This rule is for 16 Gauge only.

This is a starting point and a good one. The issue with Bismuth is the room it takes up. Bismuth does increase pressures over lead if you go like weight for like weight, but not substantially. I know that I would NOT drop the bismuth weight to 7/8 oz. with Blue Dot, because Blue Dot is the kind of powder you need to work and 7/8 oz. load of Bismuth will not be that load.

As with anything in shotshell ballistics there are exceptions and these loads should be tested before using.

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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

From precision's Bismuth Reloading Manual, Federal plastic hull cut to 2 1/2",Win 209 primer, 20 grains Unique powder, Rem SP16 wad with two 20 gauge .028 cards over shot, 15/16 oz Bismuth #4 or smaller. Velocity 1241 PSI 7920. ROLL CRIMP. There are 2 others for 2 1/2" RST/Cheddite star crimp, and Remington 2 1/2" roll crimp both are in the 11000 Psi range. I'll be happy to post if anyone wants them.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:13 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Quote:
I'll be happy to post if anyone wants them.

Yes, it would be most appreciated.

BTW, has the bismuth pellet shattering issue been resolved? Seem like we don't hear much about it anymore.

B.
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old colonel
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Topeka, Kansas

I will dig out some cheddite data for you tomorrow

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Ohio Wirehair
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio

Again from the precision Bismuth manual, 16 gauge 2 1/2" RST/Cheddite hull, Win 209 primer, 17.5 grains of Green Dot,TUWZ2M16ga wad, 3/4 oz Bismuth 71/2 shot, 1291FPS ,PSI 11,010. Doesn't state roll crimp so I would presume fold. Last but not least,16gauge Remington hull cut to 2 1/2",Win 209 primer,16 grains of Green Dot, Rem. SP16 wad with 2- 20 gauge .028 cards (over shot).7/8 oz. #4 or smaller shot. Velocity 1255 FPS, 11,350 PSI. I bought my shot from RotoMetals and it does not shatter like the Bismuth of old. I load 2 3/4 inch shells not 2 1/2 with#4 bismuth and it was like shooting lead again. #4 Bismuth will kill geese out of a 16 gauge to 40 yards. Been there done that,not my normal goose gun but when opportunity knocks you gotta open the door. #4 by the way is the sweet spot for the 16 gauge in my opinion. Anything bigger doesn't pattern that well in my opinion.
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16GAwaterfowler
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 287
Location: missouri

Brewster11 wrote:
Quote:
I'll be happy to post if anyone wants them.

Yes, it would be most appreciated.

BTW, has the bismuth pellet shattering issue been resolved? Seem like we don't hear much about it anymore.

B.

The shattering issue was with 97% Bismuth and 3% Tin alloy which is what the old Bismuth Cartridge alloy was. The Europeans found a 94% Bismuth and 6% Tin alloy didn't fracture nearly as bad as the older 97/3 alloy did. USFWS still lists the old alloy as what is acceptable however most newer Bismuth shot alloys use the higher Tin content and USFWS doesn't seem to have an issue with it. Eventually they may even change the alloy specs if they ever get around to it.
https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/hunting/nontoxic.php
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