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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:32 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

Raimey on Double Gun answered my PM
Fine Fella Smile

It was #570 for July 1919 @ the Zella-Mehlis proof facility. Looks like Max Möller performed the tube work. I suspect Oskar Will was involved. Anything on the buttplate?

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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:48 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

Is there some significance in that there is a stamp on the side of the barrels next to the flat that shows Nitro, but nothing stamped into the flat as far a nitro proofing?
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fourtrax
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 827
Location: N. Shore, mn

It is a beaut for sure.
Very interesting gun.

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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:15 pm  Reply with quote
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Yes "Crown U" see #6 on the proof mark chart (Black powder)
Yes "Crown N" see #17 on proof mark chart (Smokeless powder)

Mike
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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

Understand that, but with the marking on the barrel but nothing on the flat would it make sense that the builder intended it for nitro, but the proof house didn't test it?
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ole_270
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

zoomed in a little tighter to the side of the barrel in the picture of the left flat. The word Nitro has a crown N. With the stamp not being on the flat, would this be maybe the barrel was tested before joining the assembly or would this show the gun is safe for smokless loads?
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Cheesy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:10 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Oct 2015
Posts: 161
Location: SWMO

fourtrax wrote:
It is a beaut for sure.
Very interesting gun.


Should I tell the wife I bought it? Or just let her notice it in the corner by my bed. It’s only been leaning there for a couple months now...”why this old thing? I’ve had it forever....”
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skeettx
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:10 pm  Reply with quote
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Yes, safe for 65mm smokeless loads like the RST pressure levels
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canvasback
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:53 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

skeettx wrote:
Raimey on Double Gun answered my PM
Fine Fella Smile

It was #570 for July 1919 @ the Zella-Mehlis proof facility. Looks like Max Möller performed the tube work. I suspect Oskar Will was involved. Anything on the buttplate?


You and I both contacted Raimey, LOL.

Go to the guy who knows his stuff!

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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canvasback
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

ole_270 wrote:
Understand that, but with the marking on the barrel but nothing on the flat would it make sense that the builder intended it for nitro, but the proof house didn't test it?


It's one thing to read the proofs and understand what the barrels were originally proofed for.....however, as I noted in my first post, who knows what's happened in the last 100 years. The odds are very good this gun is fine with pressures under 8000 psi and with the recoil those types of loads will generate. However, until you find out what's been done to the barrels, none of us can know what is safe.

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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double vision
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Get it looked at by a qualified gunsmith who really knows older doubles. Chances are it will be fine with 1 oz. loads < or = 8000 psi and velocities of 1200 fps max, but having it professionally cleaned and vetted is money well spent.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

As skeettx mentioned, according to Raimey Ellenberg it is likely the barrels were produced by Max Moller and that Oscar Will of Venus Gunworks likely made the gun.

Here's a bit of history for Venus Gunworks and the Will gunmaking family:
http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/will-oscar-ernst-leo-julius-venus-waffenwerk/

In the Summer issue 2005 of the Double Gun Journal, amid an article on H.A. Lindner and his Charles Daly guns, there is a reprint of an ad from 1902/03 for Venus Gunworks and Oscar Will. Others have noted the similarities between the guns of Heinrich Lindner and those produced by Oscar Will. Here is a link to that article in the DGJ:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-lindner/

Those two links are to the German Hunting Gun website, started years ago by Dietrich Apel and currently maintained by Larry B. Schuknecht....a great resource. In fact, Larry is about as qualified as anyone in America to work on this gun.

Oscar sold the firm in 1920 and so it passed out of his family's hands for the first time since it was founded by his father in 1844. That would make this gun one of the last produced by the firm while it was controlled by the Will family. I had a strong suspicion this gun was produced by a reasonably successful firm and was not a "guild gun" based simply on the visible serial numbers. Much too large a number to be the output of a single craftsman, especially near the start of his career. But it makes complete sense to be a serial number for a firm that had been producing guns for 75 years at that point.

This gun, like Lindner's guns, is built on an Anson and Deely action with crossbolt with no intercepting sear, as was commonplace by that time. It was the shape of the side bolsters and the shape of the carved fences that made me think Lindner. Here's a pic of my 12 gauge Lindner Daly (circa 1906) and the similarities can be easily noted.

[URL=http://s267.photobucket.com/user/JAMESROBLIN/media/guns/Charles%20Daly%20Diamond%20Quality/CD%20Left%20Receiver_zpsv0ur50ww.jpg.html] [/URL]

Steve, your son found himself a hell of a gun at a hell of a price. And it's a 16 to boot!

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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ole_270
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

I saw the one recomendation for a smith to look it over, any other recomendations for someone familiar with these German models?
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canvasback
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

Bob*N wrote:
I would recommend that you contact:
J J Perodeau
711 S. 263rd West Avenue
Sand Springs, Oklahoma 74063
Phone: 580-747-1805

He was formerly the Gunsmith at Champlins in Enid Ok.
He has done some work on a couple of my doubles.
He knows his stuff and it should be an easy drive from SE Kansas.

Very nice shotgun!!


I am assuming your son lives within a 100 miles or so of you. Give that, I would encourage you to use JJ Perodeau. He's as good as you're going to get and he's in the same general area.

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1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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ole_270
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

Thanks for the confirmation on the guy, I didn't kinow if he was up on these old guns. Son is 100 miles east of me, Sand Springs would be somewhere around 100 miles south. I haven't been to the Tulsa area in years, about time I guess. We'll set up an appointment once son gets his Utah project completed.
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