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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1971
Location: Maine

ole_270 wrote:
Is there some significance in that there is a stamp on the side of the barrels next to the flat that shows Nitro, but nothing stamped into the flat as far a nitro proofing?


The Crown over N signifies it passed nitro proof.

The italic-looking script of the word "Nitro" next to the crown-over-N signifies it went through the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. If it had gone through the Suhl proofhouse, the word "Nitro" would be printed, more like an Arial typeface. I think they used the word "nitro" to help those who couldn't decipher the proof stamps. At the time, there was no internet and obscure reference information like the meaning of proof stamps was hard to get.

You needn't worry about one tube being proofed and one not. These are Germans we're talking about, and they were (and are) nothing but thorough. Especially when it came to making guns. They proofed both tubes.

The German proof laws (of that time) required the individual mechanics (craftsmen) who worked on the barrels and action to put their own stamp (usually their initials) on the gun. This was to make it possible to assign liability in the event something went wrong with the gun. The guild system then in effect meant that one specialist in a particular aspect of gunmaking might work on guns for any number of other "makers". Thus, 100 or more years later, we can know pretty well who worked on making your gun.

Don't mess with it. Take it to one of the smiths named above for an evaluation. As Canvasback has made quite clear, it's a very good idea to get a good, thorough evaluation of the wall thickness. 100 years after being made, there's really no way of knowing what (if anything) has been done to these barrels. A quick-check you can make (assuming the barrels haven't been cut) is to look at the business end and evaluate the muzzles. If they're square, it's likely the bores haven't been honed. If they're rounded over or (worse) sharp, there's a good chance someone honed them. The point is, unless and until you get a good evaluation of wall thickness you cannot know whether the barrels are safe to use with any load.

In any event, since this gun was made with 2 1/2 inch (65mm) chambers, you should be using a lower-pressure, lower-recoil shell like RST. I use them in my French double of similar age and can testify that they kill pheasants d-e-a-d. They hit hard but without beating up your gun. Spend the extra on RSTs. This is a high-quality gun and deserves highest-quality ammo. The promo stuff sold at Walmart is made to cycle dirty semi-autos reliably and runs as pressures close to SAAMI maximum and doesn't stint on recoil. Running 2 3/4 inch shells through this gun (which likely happened over 50 or so years between when manufacturers stopped making 2 1/2 inch shells and companies like RST sprang up to meet the demand) will increase recoil even further.

I would be more worried about the wood than the steel and encourage using low-recoil loads. To put it in perspective, a stock blank of the quality like the one on your gun - ASSUMING YOU COULD EVEN FIND ONE - would probably cost somewhere well north of $1000. And that's before another $2k or so worth of work turning it into a new stock. (A friend does stock work. A year or so ago he restocked, from scratch, a fine English double with similar-quality wood. The blank cost $1850.) Run enough high-recoil loads through it, and this old stock will crack or worse.

It's a treasure.

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“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

Dave, i'm glad you mentioned the wood. I meant to and then forgot.

While the consequences of barrels bursting can be catastrophic for gun and shooter, it is far more likely that shooting modern, regular load and pressure ammo will result in serious damage to the wood.

Over the 100 years since that gun was made, oil has seeped into the wood near the action, weakening the fibres. As well, the wood has naturally shrunk over that time, pulling away from the load bearing surfaces. So when the gun gets fired using modern loads, a lot of force is likely being applied to a much smaller surface area than was ever intended.

The short term result will likely be a cracked stock. And that stock should not be mistreated that way. I think Dave is being conservative about what the equivalent blank of wood would cost today. Mt guess is it would be closer to $1500 than $1000....but either way, it's a lot of money and that's before anyone starts carving!

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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ole_270
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:33 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Oct 2015
Posts: 150
Location: SE Ks

The plan at the moment is to get the gun checked, and stay well under 8000psi with 7/8 and 1 oz loads. The 7/8 load I've seen listed as 6200 psi some places, a bit more others. The 1 oz will be in the low to mid 7s. Wads on hand are the DR-16, SG-16 and Z-16 as well as card and fiber wads. I load for a newish Dickinson Estate and a late 40s Ithica M37, so I have everything needed except for the 2 1/2" hulls. I have a cutter to cut down used hulls and will probably order some of the 2 1/2" hulls from BPI. I'll just have to build a shim for the crimp stations on my Sizemaster.
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Cheesy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Oct 2015
Posts: 161
Location: SWMO

A couple of points, and questions. Apologies in advance for any that seem dumb...-

Also, just noticed if you click on my pictures (or my dads), it will open the picture up on the host site, in full size, rather than the small resolution on this site.

The toe of the buttstock has broken at some point and had a glue in replacement, see the circle in the picture below.

There is a 'scribed' line in the stock that follows the buttplate around most of the way around the stock. When I took this picture I wasn't trying to pick up that detail, but you can faintly see it in the picture.

The horn trigger guard has a crack in it, again, wasn't trying to show that, but it can be faintly seen in the picture.

There is just a faint looking crack coming off the scallops of the action on each side. May not be a crack and might be my eyes decieving me. Again, the picture wasn't taken to show this detail. I'll try and get some better pics next weekend when I'm home.



The buttplate is plastic??? and unmarked. Assuming not original? The screws holding it on are engraved to match the rest of the gun, I don't have a pic of them handy. I haven't taken the buttplate off to see if anything is underneath.

Length of pull is short to me, close to an inch short when compared against my Beretta 391 and 300. I measured it a few months ago, but forgot the exact number.




This appears to be a mis hit E. and a W. What would that indicate? Assuming someones initials?





Are these W.W.? or M. M.?
What does the 153 signify? That 153 is stamped on multiple pieces of the shotgun. Similar to serial number, tying all the pieces together? Or?




I'd been looking for a SXS 16 in the sub 6.5# range, double triggers, splinter forend for quite some time to use on wild pheasants and dove. Nearly pulled the trigger on a few Simson's and Sauer's, but was always hesitant to not knowing what I don't know...I got into this one cheap enough (total cost with shipping wouldn't pay the sales tax on many of JJ Perodeau's listings on his website) that I figured it would be money spent on the start of an education at least. 5lbs, 14.5 oz's meets the weight requirement...

The chambers had been lengthened at some point in this guns history, prior to coming into my possession. The machine shop (CNC, large order military contracts, but also a full service gunsmith) that received it said there was plenty of barrel thickness for the lengthening, but I don't know how much they actually know on old doubles (which I realize is different than rebarreling a burned out Remington 700 barrel). I'll take the advice above and get down to Tulsa at some point in the next few months to get it really checked out. I know there are several things pointed out that kill collector value, but it was bought as a bird shooter, and thats what it will do.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

Cheesy, lot of questions in there. It may take me a couple of posts to get to them all.

You don't have a collector gun. There is no group of aficionados avidly searching for Oscar Will guns and driving up the value. But what you do have is a very high quality shooter. If by no other clue, that can be discerned by the wood on the gun. Makers 100 years ago diodn't put that kind of wood on just any gun.

Any advice I have is based on the expectation you will be shooting and hunting the gun. And wanting it to be a quality firearm for another 100 years. FYI, it's the quality level of gun I am always searching for (don't always find) and all my guns are shooters....every gun I own gets taken to the field to chase wild game. But, typically, after 100 years of hopefully just benign neglect, what is usually needed is a little repair and maintenance to bring it up to scratch. A real collector gun you wouldn't do that to, but if you intend to use the gun, it's a tool, a high quality and valuable tool, and it needs to be maintained.

So first, the wood. The toe is broken because someone most likely dropped it. Repair is okay, but IMHO, not good enough given the quality of the wood you have. Depending on how old the repair is, a good wood guy may be able to remove the glue and redo it. But a big part of how good the repair is has to do with how well the two pieces of wood fit together and who knows what happened and what may have been lost when the first break happened.

The cracks coming off the scalloped action is where I would expect to see cracks forming from using modern shells with too much recoil.

Can't really speak to the issue with the butt-plate or horn trigger guard. But what I can say is this.....if it were my gun it would not be shot again until it had been sent to a very competent wood guy with instructions to examine, repair (including redoing previous repairs to improve them), glass bed the stock (which compensates for the shrunken wood, restoring the contact at all appropriate points of the butt-stock with the action) and refinish and re-chequer. A smith like JJ Perodeau is likely well qualified to handle all the issues i just mentioned.

Unless you are skilled in using the proper fitting screwdriver, don't remove anything. Don't remove the butt plate. You won't learn anything important and you will likely ruin the slots of the screws. Buggered screws on SxS are the bane of our existence and a good heads up that people who don't know what they are doinhg have been messing with a gun. And they are very expensive to repair properly when they are engraved.

I wouldn't automatically assume the butt plate is not original. It may not be because of the cracked toe issue, but it may be. Let Perodeau (or whoever you use) figure that out.


Last edited by canvasback on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

Trying to understand ALL the markings is an arcane pastime, beyond most of us. There are the basic proof marks required by German law and then there are additional markings, some required and some because the craftsmen who built the gun had their reasons.

If you really want to find out more, join the Double Gun forums and post the pictures there and/or join the German Gun Collectors Association and ask there. For the benefit of this thread, two of us got in touch with one of the best guys there is for this kind of thing. He's identified it as a gun produced by Venus Gunworks, the firm belonging to Oscar Will. And his best opinion is the MM you ask about are the initials of the man who built the barrels, Max Moller.

I say this not because there aren't good people on the 16 Gauge forum, and some here may have some ideas to help answer your questions about all the markings. I say it because those other two sites are kind of ground zero for this kind of information. The 16 Gauge Society has kind of a different focus.

It's important to understand that a lot of the records and information that would definitively identify and decode all the markings on this gun have been lost. And it's only through the hard work of research by some of these people I am referring to that we know as much as we do. And so much of it is educated guesswork.

Perodeau will likely have some suggestions for dealing with the LOP. On guns with short stocks, I use a leather slip on pad from Galco (Orvis sells the same thing). Very effective and of the same quality as the rest of the gun. I think they are around $80.

I know you got this gun for an extremely sharp price, for what it is. Do yourself a favour....don't cheap out on getting the gun back into real shooting shape. You'll be happy you did and you will always be able to sell the gun for more than you have in it, including repairs and maintenance.

Usually when we get a first post like from your dad when he started the thread we can expect, when we finally do see the pics, that it's a piece of junk (I'm being purposely harsh). It is the very rare time what gets uncovered is a gem like this.

Edit to add: Just looked at Perodeau's guns for sale. There are only two shotguns he has listed that I would prefer to this one, even if they were all priced the same. JMHO/

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1971
Location: Maine

The buttplate might be horn, too. Germans were/are fond of using horn for trigger guards and buttplates. The problem is, as your trigger guard shows, it is relatively fragile and subject to breakage. Whether it can be fixed is a matter for an expert - it might be fixable. Every now and again someone on the doublegun website will come up with buffalo horn for buttplates and trigger guards. It's not cheap, and it can be a bear to work with, but it is the correct material. (Be prepared for the smell of burning protein to permeate your house if you work with horn - it's keratin, just like your hair and fingernails.)

Don't mess with the screws, especially the engraved ones.

The cracks at the action are where you would expect them. As Canvasback noted, these can be stabilized with acraglas. Also cyanoacrylate might be useful to seep into the wood and stabilize it. Tasks for an expert.

_________________
“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa.
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canvasback
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:46 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 682
Location: Ontario

Dave in Maine wrote:
The buttplate might be horn, too. Germans were/are fond of using horn for trigger guards and buttplates. The problem is, as your trigger guard shows, it is relatively fragile and subject to breakage. Whether it can be fixed is a matter for an expert - it might be fixable. Every now and again someone on the doublegun website will come up with buffalo horn for buttplates and trigger guards. It's not cheap, and it can be a bear to work with, but it is the correct material. (Be prepared for the smell of burning protein to permeate your house if you work with horn - it's keratin, just like your hair and fingernails.)

Don't mess with the screws, especially the engraved ones.

The cracks at the action are where you would expect them. As Canvasback noted, these can be stabilized with acraglas. Also cyanoacrylate might be useful to seep into the wood and stabilize it. Tasks for an expert.


I've bought a few horn blocks from him over the years for doing forend tips and butt plates. He's up in Alaska. The stuff stinks but I've been very happy with the results. I still have a few of each for future projects.

_________________
1921 Pieper 29" 6 lbs 10 oz
2003 Citori White Lightning 26" 6 lbs 10 oz
1932 Husqvarna 310AS 29.5" 6 lbs 7 oz
1925 Ferlach 29" 6 lbs 7 oz
1923 Greifelt 29" 6 lbs 1 oz
1928 Simson 29.5" 6 lbs
1893 Lindner Daly FW 28” 5 lb 11oz
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Amazing gun. It would be a privilege to use on wild birds.

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