16ga.com ~ View topic - English 16's

Just thought I would kill some time on a very slow Friday afternoon by trying to get some answers about the type of gun that I am befuddled by more than not.

The English sxs, more specifically, the English 16ga sxs.

What confuses me is that other than the BIG (and expensive I might add) names like Purdey, Boss, H&H, Wesley Richards I really don't know who are the good gun makers and what are the good guns of the English sxs market.

There are so many different makers and manufacturers that were in existance for SO long that it is really hard to evaluate them. I have read alot of stuff about this and even reading on doublegun.com or bits of Doug Tate fabulous books on this, I still don't really have a good grasp of how to evaluate English sxs at all.

Some questions. Are there middle grade guns or middle grade makers or both? I mean it's pretty clear why a "Best" is a best, particularly of the top makers (with prices more than my house to boot), but its not so clear if those makers made middle grade, solid guns and exactly how the grading system worked for them or if there were more middle grade manufacturers who filled in the gaps of the field or lesser grades.

Simply put, how do you go about evaluating an English gun and English maker??? I know alot of the guys here have a good deal of experience in this, but I would love for some of them to impart some of this to those of us just getting started in the English SXS market.

KB

P.S. and just for the record, I am assuming 2 1/2 inch shells as standard both on 12 and 16 gauges. I reload, so this doesn't present a problem for me making my own loads and setting up a reloader for the shorter shells.

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

I would start by getting a copy of British Gunmakers by Nigel Brown. This will give you an idea of the history of the maker and production periods. I believe many of the "middle of the road" makers made guns of many different qualities from "Best" guns to guns for the military and the common man. Also, many of the older British guns have been re-proofed with modern ammunition and have had their chambers lengthened. When I decided I wanted to get a British double, I started by checking out the sites of reputable dealers here in the U.S. and eventually got a William Powell & Son from Steve Barnett. Another site you may want to check out is Woodcock Hill. They started in London in the 1800's under the name Thomas Bland & Sons. They still have a London presence but also opened up Woodcock Hill in Pennsylvania. They import quite a few British Guns after they are inspected and re-proofed in England. My gun was imported by them in the early '90's before ending up with Steve Barnett. After finding 1 or 2 that "speak" to you ask a lot of questions

Good Luck!

Matt

After reading this I wanted to edit. Most English game guns are made with 2 1/2" chambers and are designed with a "maximum" load in mind. Even if they have been lengthened one should not shoot "heavy" or "magnum" loads in them. Larry Brown recommended that I should not exceed 1 oz. loads in my British 16 and this advice is also mentioned in Michael McIntosh's "Best Guns". I have heeded this advice.

Guest

Depending upon your need to get a s/s I would recomend that you gather as much info before you jump in and buy a used s/s. Regardless of the maker, you have to make the assumption that a used gun may be 20-80+ years old with a lot of different owners who may or may not have taken the proper care of the gun. If you can get your hands on the past issues of Shooting Sportsman, they usually have a ton of info on past and current double gun makers. I would go into the gun purchasing with an extreme case of "Buyer Beware" since you may run into a lot of garbage guns. Before you buy a used s/s, you may want to find a good gunsmith to work on them because they are not readily available in certain areas of the country. The problem with old guns is that parts do break and it necessary to have someone who can put things back together for you. The "English" standard is 12 gauge 2 1/2" shooting a 1 oz load and you can probably find more 16 gauge guns based from the Continent (Franch, Belgium etc) rather than Britain. As a good initial gun (and also a final gun) are the O/U Citori or Beretta. You can get a good SKB in either 12 or 20 esp. the SKB s/s "English" style. My gunsmith who originally built guns for Purdeys told me that if everyone bought a Citori, he "would be out of business". If you really stuck on a s/s, you may look at the offering from Lion Country Supply's Ugartechea, AYA or Poli.

Happy hunting....

Member Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Posts: 989 Location: Las Vegas

When I was researching my gun I called Woodcock Hill and they told me they had quite a history on the gun but I would need to send them a check for $35.00. I did and their history was somewhat limited. At the advice of a board member I called William Powell & Son and was immediately put through to Peter Powell. Mr. Powell stopped what he was doing and looked up the records of the gun (this particular gun was manufactured in 1882 and re-barreled by them in 1940) and gave me all the details and then offered to send me copies of the companies original sales ledgers from 1882 and 1940 at absolutely no cost! To say I was flabbergasted would be an understatement!

Matt

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Holy Brown Sauce!! I guess you realize you've opened Pandora's box with this question.

I'm tempted to offer the advice of a wise man when asked how to become a wine connaisseur. He said," It's easy. Drink wine every day for about 80 years and you'll know all about it."

In addition to the Value Matrix from Doublegun BBS and the Nigel Brown books, there are: Best Guns (McIntosh), Sidelocks & Boxlocks (Boothroyd), Shotgun Technicana (McInt & Trevallion) as well as a whole library full of books that concentrate on a particular maker. I.E. The Greener Story.

As you already deduced, most makers produced guns in a wide range of quality points. I'll use a G.E. Lewis I have as example. It's sort of an oxymoron, a "best quality box lock". It has incredible full coverage scroll, knock your eyes out wood, and was No 1 of a (long since seperated) matched pair. It sold new in 1922 for 60 guineas, about $300!! That's when you could have a Sterlingworth made to your specs for around $40. Since Lewis made a LOT of guns, many people think of them as middle to lower end in the quality range. I'm here to say it ain't necessarily so.

Beyond "book larnin'" I think the most important thing is to have an eye for potential problems. The only way I know to develope the "eye" is to buy and sell a bunch of used guns. The learning curve is steep and often expensive, but I don't know any way around it. Of course you could "out source" your inspections, have a potential purchase sent to a reputable smith experienced with English sxs's. Let him discover any problems with the gun before the sale is final. If a seller won't agree to this, I'd not do business with him.

One mistake I made early on was to get hung up on a name. Don't let those little words on the receiver that spell out Holland or Westley blind you to a gun that is otherwise a lemon in terms of what you're looking for. Often the gun with a lesser name on it will be in better condition or fit you better or have some other attribute that's more in line with your needs.

One place I've learned a lot from is Thad Scott's website. Thad is the US rep for Holt's. If you tune in 2-3 times a week, after a while you'll get a pretty good idea of values, as well as what sells quickly (like the Rigby BLE 12 for $3200 that I hesitated on) and what sits around. Unfortunately, a lot of this determined by what's fashionable, and right now 16s are "in". Even though I'm a cerifiable 16 nut, I do shoot other gauges, and these days I'm looking to buy the only bargains out there, 12s.

Hope all this rambling helps. If you have any specific questions on a maker or particular gun, don't hesitate to ask here or by PM.

Pete

Safari Press www.safaripress.com lists books (most not available in bookstores) for the following makers:
Nigel Brown's British Gunmakers Vol. One-London and Vol Two-Birmingham, Scotland, and the Regions
Cogswell & Harrison
Holland & Holland
Boss & Co.
The Greener Story
Atkin, Grant & Lang
The House of Churchill
The Best of Holland & Holland, England's Premier Gunmaker
Nobili's Fine European Gunmakers
Tate's British Gun Engraving

We'll expect a book report next week Very Happy

KyBrad 16ga
you can't open a thread about English gun without me wading in.
the guys are right when they say read the books.Nigel Browns 2 vol set are a must have for any one remotely interested in English guns and the list Rev describes should be made compulsory reading,now go out and do the miles at the gun shows and pick up every gun that has a straight hand or Prince of Wales grip,look and learn.
Value------ thats a hard one, a lot of guns are brought out of the UK cheaply and dropped on the USA market.The dealer has to cover all costs incurred and make a profit. It may be cheaper to go to the UK and find a gun yourself. When in country you can have the gun checkedby an English gunsmithas well as proof checked or you may find a genuine sleeper.I have been lucky and have found 2 sleepers.My Gibbs 470 double rifle and my Webley & Scott 700-16ga both were in wonderful condition through not having been used in years.They were value

Quality! its a self serving statement when you talk about English (UK) guns

Price- How much do you want it and how big is your cheque book?.If the gun is not knocked about and you think it will last you 30 pheasant or grouse seasons then it's probably worth it - 30 years of friendship or love does not have a dollar value but it does have a lot of memories

good shooting
sbs470

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

While you can (and, should) read all the books mentioned, the simple fact remains that you are going to have to judge (or, pay someone with the knowledge to judge) each gun on it's own merits. We all like to believe that a certain name on a gun automatically means we will get top of the world quality, but that is not always the case. Some of the guns built from after WWII until the mid 1980s or so from even the best houses are simply sub-par, and among those, the guns built specifically for Americans (or, the American market) can be real stinkers. Case in point-Henry Ford IIs Purdey built pair, that were recently auctioned. The fit, engraving, checkering, finish, and wood were not up to the quality of most London Bests of any era, and they were ordered as one might want a Winchester 21-capped pistol grip and single trigger, not any London makers forté. Further, a gun that has been here for any length of time may have seen a "gunsmith" or two who may have made whatever was wrong, worse.
While a W&S 700 is a simply wonderful English gun, don't make the mistake of comparing it to a "name" London gun, in quality or price-I don't really even think you can compare it to a W&S 500, but, they made far more 700s and they seem to turn up here more often. There were many makers and subcontractors who turned out thousands of servicable boxlocks and sidelocks for every "Best" gun that was ever produced, and they will be an exceptional value for the price, IF they pass an inspection by someone who knows what to look for.
I highly reccommend Kirk Merrington do an inspection of any English or continental gun you may be considering. Have the dealer ship the gun to Kirk first, and go with what Kirk says. He was trained at Hollands, and has years of experience with English guns in particular. The fee he charges for this service is reasonable, compared to what some problems on English guns cost to fix. On occasion, he has a gun or two for sale, and they can be a pretty safe bet if they meet your needs.
Good Luck in the search. Remember, you can spend as much as you can pay for some English guns, but, you don't have to, and some really good buys are out there-the guns seem to be leaving England in droves these days, a good thing for us. I am a little sad for the passing of that lifestyle in England, but, enjoy the guns doing their work over here.
Best,
Ted

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

One small note about Thad.
He claims to be semi-retired, though judging by the volume of guns on his site, he looks to be busier than ever!

Anyway, this means he answers the phone 10-4 Central, Mon-Fri. I've always found him to be nothing less than the classic southern gentlemen, polite to a fault, honest in his descriptions, and fair in his pricing. I'll be very sad come the day he retires for real.

Being so close by, you probably know he accepts visitors by appointment, really it's just a call ahead to make sure he'll be there. One of my goals: to pay Thad a visit and try not to slobber too much!! Smile

Pete

PS. I second Ted's comments on post 2nd WW British guns. There's much to be avoided there.

In case anyone missed this thread on 'English 16s'
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

As a student of the Brit double for the last 15 years, I have only purchased one.
What I found was the the Brit double was highly overpriced for London Best. Birmingham guns which essentially are put together by jobbers making specific parts and then a 'Maker' doing final assembly can be an OK gun but and the but is a big one, most of these guns have been altered in one form or another and some are sent over here because they can't pass Brit Proof which is required upon a shotgun alteration. I see many websites filled with low priced Brit doubles with what I believe are junk. An honest dealer is your only hope.
I finally purchased a 2" 12 gauge made for A&F in 1939 by the proof marks from Steve Barnett. Even Steve did not have the gun correct and thought it was a W&S from the 1950's. Turns out it was probably made by Skimin & Wood. It appears that the gun has not been modified and the stock is original. I have an A&F catalog from 1939 that shows the exact gun so that was a big help.
Look at everything you can get your hands on and don't become impatient. when the right gun comes along, check EVERYTHING, chamber depth, constrictions and Proof Marks to verify the gun is unaltered. Have inspected by one of the people already mentioned and be prepared to pay a few $$. Your won't get a good Brit double cheap inspite of what you may be told.-Dick