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| < 16ga. Guns ~ English 16's - how to judge value, quality and price?? |
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 Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:41 pm
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Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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| Foursquare wrote: |
KB, you're a lifesaver. Thanks.
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Glad to help, I couldn't believe the price either. I about fell over myself, I couldn't get my credit card out of my wallet fast enough to order it.
I had thought I would pass it along to others here who would be interested, but when I logged on I saw that you had already asked for another link to this book after looking it up on abebooks.com and amazon.com (I did the same thing and found the prices equally outrageous...).
Sooo... it worked out really well for everyone. |
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:31 pm
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Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 446
Location: Wisconsin
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Do not overlook a Brit 2" 12 gauge. They weigh in the 5# range and shoot an carry like a 20. Be aware that these guns in boxlock were mostly manufactured in the 30's and 40's from Skimin & Wood actions by various makers. Many were for women and children and surface to day with stock extensions. A&F did import these guns with standard US LOP scroll marked Abercrombie and Fitch. I have one, purchased from Steve Barnett. It has 1939 Proof Marks, weighs 5#'s 7oz and is in almost mint condition. A superb example of Brit gunmaking.-Dick
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:36 pm
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Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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| budrichard wrote: |
Do not overlook a Brit 2" 12 gauge. They weigh in the 5# range and shoot an carry like a 20. Be aware that these guns in boxlock were mostly manufactured in the 30's and 40's from Skimin & Wood actions by various makers. Many were for women and children and surface to day with stock extensions. A&F did import these guns with standard US LOP scroll marked Abercrombie and Fitch. I have one, purchased from Steve Barnett. It has 1939 Proof Marks, weighs 5#'s 7oz and is in almost mint condition. A superb example of Brit gunmaking.-Dick
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Beautiful gun right there Dick. I had not thought of a 2" gun and have only ever seen 2 or 3 of them. Hmm... definitely food for thought.
Do the 2" guns generally run less than the average 2 1/2" Brit Gun? |
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:37 pm
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Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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| Chukarman wrote: |
Here's the little Harkom 16...
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That's a gorgeous gun right there CMan... gives me inspiration to keep looking.
KB |
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:24 am
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Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 446
Location: Wisconsin
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| KyBrad16ga wrote: |
| budrichard wrote: |
Do not overlook a Brit 2" 12 gauge. They weigh in the 5# range and shoot an carry like a 20. Be aware that these guns in boxlock were mostly manufactured in the 30's and 40's from Skimin & Wood actions by various makers. Many were for women and children and surface to day with stock extensions. A&F did import these guns with standard US LOP scroll marked Abercrombie and Fitch. I have one, purchased from Steve Barnett. It has 1939 Proof Marks, weighs 5#'s 7oz and is in almost mint condition. A superb example of Brit gunmaking.-Dick
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Beautiful gun right there Dick. I had not thought of a 2" gun and have only ever seen 2 or 3 of them. Hmm... definitely food for thought.
Do the 2" guns generally run less than the average 2 1/2" Brit Gun?
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The 2" 12 market is rather strange. Because many were made for small statures, the stocks are mostly short LOP and not very usable dim's. These stocks are often hollow for weight reduction, so restocking will add weight. So, original full size LOP are somewhat scarse. When I purchased this one, had I seen a lot of 2" boxlocks but all had extensions and was told by one dealer importing used Brit guns that the market was 'soft' at the time. The one i purchased was made for A&F USA sales and so listed in a 1939 A&F Catalog i have. So it was made with a 14&1/4" LOP. For that and the condition, I paid a premium price(double) which i have not regretted. Arietta makes a 2" gun but the weight will not be under 6#'s which negates the 2" advantage and asks the question 'why hinder yourself with 2" ammunition?'
So to answer your question, it all depends. If an all original 2" boxlock with adequate LOP and no extension, price may exceed a similar 2&1/2" gun, if not then price may be less. The best advice, I have heard about about Brit Boxlocks is to buy the gun and not worry about maker, chamber etc. These guns had the parts jobbed out and then assembled so one guy was just making barrels another actions etc.
Brit Sidelock London 2" guns are a whole nother ball game because they are usually makers guns. So far I haven't found one that was reasonable in price but i haven't found a lot. One US dealer had a Holland 2" for $27.5K. The Holland boys couldn't believe that price! Asked them to find me one at less than 15K in the UK and never found one in nice condition. Interestingly the same A&F catalog listed a Purdey 2" available. Still looking and never have even seen one! I think I would break the 'piggy' bank for one made for the US market!.-Dick |
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:49 pm
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Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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Brad,
You likely saw this, but I thought I'd mention it. Not a 16, but nice none the less.
www.thadscott.com/18932.html
Pete |
_________________
" .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:25 pm
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Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 2172
Location: Kansas High Plains
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I hope Brit guns are better than Brit cars! I drove them for many years, and as much as I loved them, my head was under the hood far too often, and for too long a time. Funny: Ever since I replaced the last Engish car with a Toyota 4Runner, my tools have wondered what the h*ll happened to me!
My Resume of Usless Skills lists the fact that I am probably the best shade tree Brit car mechanic in these parts, but it's something I don't make too public for fear someone might find out about it, and might ask me to ply my skills. If you need an SU carburetor rebuilt I'm your man, but I'm not likely to admit it in mixed company.
Someone on this thread made the statement that if you're going to shoot a Brit gun you need to have a good Brit gun smith close by. Reason enough to stick to my old American classics! Thank you, Ansley, and God bless!.
Fin |
_________________
I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:00 pm
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Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Jackson, Mississippi
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| Foursquare wrote: |
Brad,
You likely saw this, but I thought I'd mention it. Not a 16, but nice none the less.
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I did see that one. I liked it alot, but would need to wait until after Christmas and some housing improvements to see if I can afford that one right now.
Army & Navy guns are considered 2nd Tier guns right? That is a very nice condition gun though.
Tempting thats for sure.
KB |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:22 pm
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Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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| KyBrad16ga wrote: |
Army & Navy guns are considered 2nd Tier guns right?
KB
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Not sure where they fall on the tier ranking from DGBBS. Once you get beyond what I consider the "big 5" (H&H,Purdey,Boss, Woodward,W-R) I wouldn't worry about the particular maker as much as the condition.
If you've read enough McIntosh, you'll find the story of his Wilkes SLE.
By very carefully examination of the engraving and stock work he and D.T. were able to figure out which craftsmen did the work and then to conclude that his "Wilkes" was actually made by Jeffery. Both quality makers in the same general level.
"A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet."
Pete |
_________________
" .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:41 pm
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Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 989
Location: Las Vegas
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I got my first Brit gun ever early this year. A Birmingham Boxlock by William Powell & Son. I'm amazed at how light it is. 5' 14 oz. I believe. I concur with Larry about the versatility of the 2 1/2" 12 ga. and I'm currently looking at 2 examples.
Here's a pic of the 16ga.
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:16 pm
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona
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| Foursquare wrote: |
| KyBrad16ga wrote: |
Army & Navy guns are considered 2nd Tier guns right?
KB
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Not sure where they fall on the tier ranking from DGBBS. Once you get beyond what I consider the "big 5" (H&H,Purdey,Boss, Woodward,W-R) I wouldn't worry about the particular maker as much as the condition.
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You're leaving out a few makers - Stephen Grant, Henry Atkin, Dickson,,,
| Quote: |
If you've read enough McIntosh, you'll find the story of his Wilkes SLE.
By very carefully examination of the engraving and stock work he and D.T. were able to figure out which craftsmen did the work and then to conclude that his "Wilkes" was actually made by Jeffery. Both quality makers in the same general level.
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Jeffery guns were made by Birmingham makers - most by Leonard. Not a criticism of quality, but Jeffery is not considered first tier.
It's also interesting that so many 'London' guns came out of Birmingham shops... and sold for so much more than guns from the same maker when labeled and sold by a provincial or Birmingham maker.
Army and Navy was a co-operative type effort that sourced and sold goods to British military types at the height of the empire. Some of these guns are exquisite, others quite pedestrian. I gree that you must judge the gun, not the 'makers' name. This is the only blanket advice for the buyer. |
_________________
Country to hunt, my setters, and a Fox 16 gauge...
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:40 pm
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Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 398
Location: S Fl
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| Chukarman wrote: |
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You're leaving out a few makers - Stephen Grant, Henry Atkin, Dickson,,,
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Oh....CMan! What have you done?? 
I was tryiing to keep those names quiet! Now everybody knows. 
Pete |
_________________
" .......you have learned patience and stubbornness and concentration on what you really want at the expense of what is there to shoot. You have learned that man can as easily be debased as ennobled by a sport....." |
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:05 pm
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona
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| CitoriFeather16 wrote: |
I got my first Brit gun ever early this year. A Birmingham Boxlock by William Powell & Son. I'm amazed at how light it is. 5' 14 oz. I believe. I concur with Larry about the versatility of the 2 1/2" 12 ga. and I'm currently looking at 2 examples.
Here's a pic of the 16ga.
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Beautiful gun, Matt. Tell us more about it? |
_________________
Country to hunt, my setters, and a Fox 16 gauge...
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:07 pm
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 173
Location: S. E. Arizona
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| Foursquare wrote: |
| Chukarman wrote: |
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You're leaving out a few makers - Stephen Grant, Henry Atkin, Dickson,,,
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Oh....CMan! What have you done??
I was tryiing to keep those names quiet! Now everybody knows.
Pete
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OOOPS! Sorry! I'll try to be circumspect from now on... |
_________________
Country to hunt, my setters, and a Fox 16 gauge...
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:31 am
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Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 743
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Brit 16's often have similar problems to 2" 12's when it comes to finding one with good original stock dimensions. Pretty much anything but a 2 1/2" 12 was considered a lady's or a kid's gun, and was stocked accordingly. So you have to do a bit of looking to find one with a decent LOP. However, if you have at least 13 1/2" of wood, you can get out to 14 1/2", no problem, with a pad. Might not look classic British, and it will change the balance a bit (although some stock hollowing, if a lot hasn't already been done, can help there), but it's often the only inexpensive way to get the LOP you need--without restocking the gun, which is not inexpensive!
I have a pair of Army & Navy 12's. They were made by WC Scott, as were many A&N's--although far from all. One of the interesting aspects of owning A&N's is that their records still exist, at the University of Glasgow. You can find out when they were made. For a fee, you can also get the page from the A&N order book, with all the details. Mine were ordered by a British brigadier in 1933. Got them in the original motor case, with the brigadier's initials on it. Always nice to know that much about your vintage guns.
And they're still killing pheasants. |
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