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tramroad28
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:14 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

goathoof wrote:
... I cannot imagine any way to rid a state of cheat grass.


Which is the real world reality for many invasives....multiflora to bush honeysuckle to cheat to more.
Whether begun by accident or by design a la multiflora, bad stuff now carries trade-offs to ever making a dent.

Just a shame, in this instance, when birdhunting is Thought 1.
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nwmac
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2015
Posts: 75

I suggest doing a google search on cheat grass. The information is interesting, like finding out why cheat grass is so prolific, and what it has done to the habitat, and its negative effects on species such as the sage grouse, and increasing the frequency of wildfires. Anyone living or visiting the west this summer has experienced the effects of wildfires. There is also some very cool research by a professor at Washington State University who is treating cheat grass with naturally occurring bacteria that seems to work with no adverse side effects. Anyway, knowledge is power or so they say.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:15 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Well technically, all lifeforms are invasive. All spread their "seed" as best they can. That said, some are more successful than others. Some of the most invasive fish species in the west are introduced trout species. But those are popular, so they get a free pass most places.

Anyway, there is a new herbicide that kills cheatgrass. Of course there is a caveat in that where spray patterns overlap it kills everything. That is the report from a county north of us that discontinued using it. Our county bought their equipment.

As far as the biological alternative is concerned, a friend who has become one of our state's land use analysts pointed out this thought: What happens when we introduce a non-native bacteria and later find out we missed something and it is deemed harmful too? Will it be as difficult too remove? He is quite aware of what is going on with the cheatgrass war and actually wants to see a balance struck, but he is only one man. He also procured some of the funding for this war, but it was supposed to be used to stop any spread in the Sweetwater drainage where cheatgrass is not prevalent. It appears the funds have been misused since they are spraying the Popo Agie drainage instead (where cheatgrass has been established for longer than I have been alive). I let him know about that and hopefully things will change.

Back to chukars. I wish they could survive in the wild without cheatgrass, but all evidence has shown that they don't.

On the subject of Russian Olives: here in Wyoming we don't have any native alternatives or combination thereof that offer as many available winter calories for so many species. Face it , there isn't much "dirt" in our dirt here; at least not in the areas where Russian Olives will grow. Mule deer thrive on the things near Mom's house, specifically congregating beneath them daily and feeding. Pheasants, sharp tail grouse, and other birds utilize them heavily when winter gets tough too.

This isn't just about making bird hunting priority #1. It is about a series of dominoes that has begun to tip and the result is that your children and grand children will likely not enjoy the same quality outdoor experiences that we did. This about keeping what we have, not seeing widespread conversion of landscapes for a favorite bird.

And yes, monoculture is very bad. But Wyoming is the absolute opposite of a monoculture. Losing a habitat type in favor of another, regardless of native vs. non native, is a shame. So is losing a species.

Wildfires do come and go and in the right locations they do promote a short term surge of cheatgrass renewal if the rains are forthcoming in proper time. No coincidence, hun and chukar populations explode for a year or two. Then as the cheatgrass thins out due to dry years, the birds die off too. Many of these areas are heavy with bentonite soil and little native grass will even grow there. We have had a fairly happy balance here in Wyoming with certain areas fitting this category and others not. This really has changed little over the years and suddenly eradicating bird feed in these areas is a real kick in the crotch, especially when we are being forced to foot the bill.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

No doubt a birdhunter’s crotch.

Every region has dominos and many have fallen in this area....often by focusing upon less than habitat health and diversity first and more on ease of habitat creation or what habitat or actions/attitudes pleases hunters/birdwatchers/trail riders/whomever.
Old growth timber and MTR plantings for example...deer hunters, for another.
Bad juju has resulted from each...for habitat and for other hunters....and especially, for their grandkids.
It is all too easy for any hunter to trumpet his preference of the now and decry change...understandable, but more is involved for those grandkids than any one hunter’s preferences....be they yours...or be they mine.

Monoculture is best viewed by local area rather than a state....states, by and large and if any size, can be quite diverse...then and now.
A statewide look distracts from a single valley in profound change carrying tradeoffs beside better hunting for a critter or two.
I have no doubt that cheat grass can benefit some critters, can supply what nature has no answer......sometimes, that can be workable, perhaps applaudable and sometimes it can get out of hand and then, must be justified or rationalized away.
That is a shame and a waste, to me.
Correction is costly and may not be offset by hunter dollars....in the long, long term.

Cheatgrass is not the issue that bothers me, tho....the issue that does are the attitudes of “good hunting, right on” or “my those trees make this a cathedral for me” and so on.....that thinking is present in far more than Wyoming today and has impacted habitat by ignoring......habitats and habitat health.
That attitude......is spreading like cheatgrass.

Not much grows on MTR areas....so, some tough grasses get planted , grow and then the DNRs decide all that will prosper, easily, is elk...”Let’s get elk!”.
Then the elk escape and enter another state....taking away management energy and funds from that state. Taking away fuel for chain saws.
Invasives of all manner do not stay confined or carry only rainbows and marshmallows in their luggage for the trip.
They often carry “get with me or go fly a kite”.

We all know wildlife booms upon their own habitat’s recovery or widespread creation...that does presuppose “their” habitat and they are the end all.
Some thought, for example, the unnatural and artifical ruffed grouse habitat creation in the Appalachians from logging and fire at the last century's turn was great.
For th esomewhat new sport hunter it was.....less so for trout and more.....trade-offs happen. Balance should happen more often.
But, that attitude of preference and blindness will work a treat for awhile, so ride the wave and ignore the landfall?
I reckon so.

Make it a good season, regardless......many of us do exactly that because the future, for many, is their now and others must bend to fit.
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nwmac
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2015
Posts: 75

Wyochukar,
Just to keep things clear the bacteria I was referring to is native and present in soils, just not in concentrations high enough to slow the development of the deep roots that cheatgrass has. That seems to be the beauty of this treatment the bacteria is already there and in addition it dies off to background levels in about 4 years. Interestingly, that is about the time it takes to slow down the cheatgrass so that native grasses/plants can compete. Its not a one size fits all, and it will never eradicate cheatgrass, but it may work in areas where preservation and conservation of the native habitat is important on many levels. I'm not a scientist nor a wildlife biologist, not sure what is best for any given situation or area, its way to complex for my pea brain. Like you I want our wild areas to be as good if not better for our descendants as they are for us, and its up to us to make the effort to keep what we have. Conversations like this are important. We come from different regions of the country and its an education to see whats happening and to share opinions and facts about these issues. Keep safe brother and good hunting.
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gomerdog
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Fremont County, Wyoming

WyoChukar wrote:


Yellowstone Lake? You may be old enough to remember the news release; some of the old timers here used to point out that there was a rearing pond in one of the tributaries to Yellowstone Lake that was being used to hold Lake Trout/Macs. In the 1950's the dam broke during high spring runoff and the fish washed downstream. Nobody illegally introduced Lake trout into Yellowstone.


I guess I would like to see the news article about this. Yellowstone Lake is located in the caldera of a huge volcano. All the tributaries that flow into it originate in the mountains of the park or the wilderness areas surrounding it and there is only one outlet. Which makes it unlikely that a dam would have been built on one of its tributaries because you just don't do that in a national park or a wilderness area, and if this happened in the 50's why did they not show up in fishermen's creels until 1994? Seems like over a 40 year span of time somebody would have noticed.
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gomerdog
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Sep 2015
Posts: 94
Location: Fremont County, Wyoming

On native vs. invasive species: If getting rid of Russian Olive trees (especially along streams) means that native willows, that have been exterminated decades ago, can thrive and provide habitat for other native species such as moose and wintering elk population, that's an easy choice for me. If cheat grass can be exterminated (highly unlikely) and in its place native grasses and forbs can thrive and provide habitat for native sage grouse, antelope, wintering deer and elk that's an easy choice for me. If feral horses (there are no wild horses) can be exterminated and provide better habitat for sage grouse, antelope, desert elk, mule deer and yes, even cattle, that's an easy choice for me.

I'll take native over non-native every time. I could say that that's the way God wanted it to be, but I don't believe that. It's just the way native species have adapted to each other's presence over thousands of years. Ecosystems with as many of the original players present as possible are healthy. I want my kids and grandkids (if I ever have any) to be able to enjoy them that way.
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nwmac
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Apr 2015
Posts: 75

FYI a quick search revealed that according to the National Park Service lake trout were illegally introduced to Yellowstone Lake in the 1980's or early 90's with the first recorded catch being in 1994. The lake trout are devastating the native cut throat trout population which they feed on. The cut throat is a primary source of food for other native species in the park. The reduction in the cut throat population has had a negative impact on these other animals. The park is actively working to eliminate the lake trout from the lake.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Gomerdog, I know you well enough and will address you first. What the NPS did in the 40's and 50's was very, very different from what they do today and their attitude was to fill voids, whether right or wrong they brought a lot of non-native fish in. I am only relaying what old timers told me in terms of a storage dam breaking. It would be convenient to tell whatever story today if nobody remembers it. Who put the lakers there? We will never produce concrete evidence. I do know that many so-called illegal introductions in Colorado were not and CPW is covering their butts. There are hatchery receipts for those fish and I personally know one witness. That being the case, do I believe NPS? I am cautiously skeptical. And I won't deny the damage the lakers have done. As huge as Yellowstone lake is I doubt we can get rid of them, but it did take many decades for them to get to this stage, so perhaps they can be controlled.

While we are at it, let's get rid of the large race of gray wolves and replace them with the small race that was native to this region. It seems odd that the same G&F that is willing to purge the land of non-natives that they don't like, was so cooperative with bringing the larger subspecies in knowing full well the impact it would have on elk and moose herds.

As far as "trading" Russian Olives for willows and elk moose, it doesn't work that way and I know that you are aware that the two exist in different habitat regions. No cheatgrass and chukars will not equate to sage grouse and pronghorn nirvana either. Based on my continual observations out in the wild, the steep slopes where chukars and cheatgrass thrive don't attract many sage grouse or pronghorns, even in areas where cheatgrass is largely absent; once again we have different niches being filled. Reverting to an "either or" mentality with wildlife management just doesn't work, although there are those trying to sell that pitch. The "if" is not realistic. I won't take native over non-native every time, not when both can exist in healthy populations.


Back to bacteria. I talked with Joe this morning concerning a different topic until this came up. He pointed out that there are experiments with both bacteria and fungus, but neither is naturally present in our soils. I side with him concerning caution. For that matter though, just how healthy is it to keep introducing toxic chemicals to control invasive organisms? When I was a kid, local water wells became contaminated with Tordon. Another good point he makes on a frequent basis is that most of this is completely based on computer models and too many people are placing blind faith in these without sufficient proof. It makes his job very difficult when the mess has to be undone.

This really isn't about pick and choose. Let's face reality. Our American landscape has been and continues to be altered on a large and lasting scale. In many parts of the country, non-native birds are important if we expect to recruit hunters and foot the wildlife management bill. Would I love to see bobwhite populations restored to what my Dad enjoyed? Absolutely. But farming has changed and civilization has expanded. This example is not unique. I look back at what Wyoming used to offer, and it wasn't much. Very few waters in our state held any fish at all. There were many vacant land types that our non-native birds now occupy. Bentonite rich areas that were devoid of any grazable vegetation now have cheatgrass that not only benefits chukars and huns, but a host of songbirds as well, some of which are native.

What I am calling for is moderation. The knee jerk "kill it all" attitude benefits few. If we sacrifice non-natives for natives, we are just as guilty as if we do the opposite. If we really want to be honest and own up for everything, we need to realize that humans and livestock were never native to this land. At some point, my ancestors migrated across the ice cap in search of new land. Much later, other peoples ventured here and eventually livestock replaced the great bison herds. But here we are now living pretty darn good lives. It is a waste to allow bits and pieces of that to be taken away because somebody else deems it no longer important. Surrender this and soon we will surrender something else until life as we knew it is no longer a possibility. History bears that out. We don't have to destroy so much to restore so little. Nobody wants to admit it, but grazing practices have changed and what the bison herds once accomplished is now prevented. Those are large scale changes to habitat and many wildlife declines are traced to it. But, a few people can make a living if we find a convenient scape goat, until the promised results once again don't materialize.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

I apologize for such lengthy posts, there is just so much to discuss. I must take some of the blame I suppose, for turning my back on a career in wildlife management to pursue other interests long ago. I would have had more say in what happens now and what happens to generations of outdoorsmen and the life they cherish.

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Bret
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:01 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Dec 2017
Posts: 87
Location: Northern Utah

The problem is that we throw a blanket policy over everything that doesn't take into account some areas where those evil invasive species have become crucial to the altered environment. Native species don't always do well in this altered more fragmented world we have created with pavement blacktop buildings and houses. In some places Russian olives are evil. I know out in the Uinta basin in Utah they have taken over creating almost a monoculture. Thinning them out would probably do some good even for the pheasant population. Where I spend my time they are a crucial part of the ecosystem especially in the winter and not just for pheasant and valley quail. Cedar Waxwings are my favorite songbird they love them.

One such place I have frequented for most of my life is a small creek in the desert. This creek has (had) a few olives along its banks. They haven't spread or grown much if at all in population in my lifetime. The mallards would flock in there during the winter months. The deeper the snow gets the more ducks would be there. Over the years I noticed the mallards I shot over decoys on that tiny creek would be full of olives once the snow covered the grain in the few agricultural fields in the surrounding area. This creek happens to be on BLM land. They have removed the evil olives and in doing so also removed the mallards. A native species for those keeping score. I wouldn't mind so much if they had a native replacement species that somehow filled the void but now the banks are covered in nothing but sage. I miss the successful days I once had there.
Cheatgrass is prone to fire that is the biggest complaint. The good news for chukar hunter is that its almost impossible to get rid of in mass scale. There is also other grasses that chukar do well on I'm told. That being said when I'm hunting for the best cheat chutes in the area.

My .02

Bret

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Researcher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:44 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

Well, lets remove every cow, wild horse and donkey from every square inch of public land. They are non-native.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

Just because something is non-native does not make it bad, here in Pa we once had a great non-native wild Pheasant population, and some of the greatest Pheasant hunting un the USA. It definitely was great. Not all things non-native are bad, especially for game management.

Pine Creek/Dave
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:27 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
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Location: Hudson,Wy

My point in a nutshell.

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UncleDanFan
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:39 am  Reply with quote
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This is all part and parcel of the New Pangea (Elizabeth Kolbert's book The 6th Extinction lays this out thoroughly). The original pangea was the large original land mass that existed hundreds of millions of years ago, before the continents slowly drifted apart. This continental drift of course, slowed or halted species migration except for birds and the like. Now, due to man's influence and intercontinental travel, plant and animal species migrate freely, some intentionally by man, and many unintentionally, slowly re-creating a new pangea, or consolidation of species across continents.

Here in WA, the only native upland species I hunt are California quail and grouse. If it weren't for non-native species, most of my upland hunting for chukars, huns, and pheasants wouldn't exist. Let's hope it never comes to that.

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