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hayseed
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:54 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 401

Educate me as to the difference. I know that sidelocks are coveted by many on here. I only own boxlocks and have not had the pleasure of owning or shooting the sidelocks. Is it personal preference? Specs? Tradition?
Just wondering. Thanks
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

hayseed,

Basically the side lock double gun is engineered with the internal operating parts of the gun mounted on the removable side lock plates of the gun. A more complex and costly way to engineer and manufacture than the simple Box lock design. Many believe it is the mark of a true high quality double gun.
It is also more costly to produce most times, due to all the hand fit and finish work, than the simple box lock engineering. The L.C. Smith is a true side lock double gun where the LeFever is a box lock double gun, most times with side plates. Cost of purchase can be great with either type double gun, depending on the model and scarcity of the double gun.

Basically it's the different engineering design of the gun.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

In the picture below the top gun is a LeFever/Ithaca Box Lock, with no side plates, the rest of the double guns are Side Locks, from L.C. Smith and J.P. Sauer.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55694_800x600/] [/URL]

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hayseed
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:38 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Feb 2017
Posts: 401

Pine Creek, I was hoping you'd respond. I've read often of your fondness for these guns. Familiar basically with function just wondered if the love was for the quality of craftsmanship or if they were functionally better.

I am quite fond of the boxlock, though I have never had the pleasure to shoot a sidelock so that could be subject to change. Was always under the impression that in older guns, the stocks on sidelocks were more fragile than the box due to inletting. Is this true?
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

hayseed,

In reality every wood stock cracks at a certain percentage no matter the manufacturer. The different engineering design and wood quality can however add to the failure rate. Taken care of properly side lock gun stocks have identical failure rates no matter the manufacturer. Remember the more guns made by any manufacturer the more stocks you will see fail. This is one of the reasons you see so many old L.C. Smith stocks that are cracked, they built so many more guns than any other manufacturer. So naturally more wood stocks have cracked. Also many owners here in American abused the guns badly.

None of my Pre 1913 L.C. Smith guns have cracked stocks. They have been taken care of property down thru the generation in our family.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:06 am  Reply with quote
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I have sidelock guns in 16 ga and 12 ga, Ugartechea and AYA respectively, and really can't tell any difference when shooting them. Putting them on the electronic scales it seems that they are a couple of ounces heavier than comparable boxlocks. My sidelocks are a bit fancier with the engraving and wood selection than most boxlocks, but that could go either way depending on what you were willing to pay for. Now that I have a couple of sidelock guns, the magic has kinda worn off, and I would no longer actively look for one, but also would not pass on the right one.

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steve f
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 147
Location: N. Georgia

From what I've read, in the late 1800s in Britain and some other European countries there were 'best' quality boxlocks made along with sidelocks. Boxlocks were a little cheaper to make and over the years boxlocks slowly took up the mid-grade and lower grade niches. There are definitely exceptions, for example H.A. Lindner and JP Sauer in Germany produced some best grade boxlocks that stand up to any gun made as far as quality. In England EJ Churchill made the Hercules self-opening boxlock for many years that was top quality, and priced not far below their best sidelock (and above the lower grade sidelocks). In general though, after about 1900 true best quality boxlocks were slowly fading from the scene .

As far as value for money, a really nice boxlock is hard to beat, and some of the pre-WWII boxlocks are bargains compared to sidelocks (and that is just my opinion, YMMV).
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:27 pm  Reply with quote



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steve f,

I agree however the German J.P Sauer side lock double guns are J.P.'s Best guns and many times you can pick up a Pre war Best J.P Sauer side lock for very reasonable money. I look for them all the time, fantastic Pre War classic German guns..


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Pre War side lock 16 gauge Best J.P. Sauer double gun, that I acquired this past year. Simply a great piece of engineering with Krupp high grade Barrels.

[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/55695_800x600/] [/URL]

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:05 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Not all boxlock are simple. Not all sidelocks are complex. The W.W. Greener “Facile Princess” a boxlock, sold for more than Greener companies sidelock models.
A sidelock is a hammergun with the hammers on the inside. One has to look further into the design of either type of gun to come to a conclusion as to which will be best for him.
Own both, love both. But, I love the sliding breech design even more. Each has benefits and shortcomings.

Best,
Ted

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Researcher
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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That would be "Facile Princeps" Ted.

Askins once wrote that the hammerless sidelock was just part of the evolutionary process and should disappear in favor of the boxlock. J. Purdey & Sons and some others may take offense.

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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Dave,
Yes, I know. The auto spell got me, and my chance to edit had passed when I finished browsing.
A non ejector A and D boxlock, with double triggers, will frustrate Murphy’s law about as well as anything, in my experience.
But, one does have to remember to NEVER attempt to close a Facile Princeps self acting ejector if it is not cocked.
You will break it. Almost no-one is qualified to work on one, either.

Best,
Ted

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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:02 am  Reply with quote
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Generally, more and better features could more easily be provided with a sidelock than a boxlock. e.g. Sidelocks generally can have better trigger pulls (due to better lock geometry), intercepting sears (safety feature), easy field maintenance, and more room for engraving (lockplates). None of these features, however, are exclusive to sidelocks, and highly decorated "best" guns can also be boxlocks. And these two lock types are not at all the only types out there as Ted mentions with the very beautiful French sliding breech guns, drop locks, etc. and all the different types of "lock-up". It has been, and still is less costly to manufacture a boxlock -- generally lower parts count -- and that's why so many of the lower grade or less expensive SxS and O/U's have been boxlocks. But again, there are and have been some very high end guns using boxlock actions.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Max Smoke,


Unfortunately it's not just the parts count that keeps the cost high on a side lock double gun. It's all the hand fit and finish work it takes to make the exacting fit up in the side lock gun that is so costly. Marlin long ago found this out when they tried to make a true line operation to produce the L.C. Smith double gun, their line set up failed miserably and the cost to produce the gun was way to much, leading to the line being shut down after a very short time.

Ted,
Some of the finest side lock guns were Hammer Guns, good luck having the slide breech gun becoming a big design sales competitor, with the side lock and box lock guns. I doubt there is much chance of that ever happening. Although the engineering design is quite nice.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

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Researcher
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:02 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 695
Location: WA/AK

Don't forget, the cheapest double guns made in America from the late 1890s into the 1930s came out of H & D Folsom Arms Co.'s gun factory in Norwich, Conn. under the names Crescent Fire Arms Co., American Gun Co., Folsom Arms Co., and hundreds of "trade brands" and they were all "sidelocks".


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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:25 pm  Reply with quote



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Researcher,

Not only that they were darn nice double guns priced right for the average American family, I have an original Crescent 12 gauge that functions perfectly even today, and it has killed many many Pheasants in Lancaster County, Pa.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Beans,
Well over 1 million sliding breech guns have been sold all over the world. Far, far more of them have been sold here, than any American design sold overseas.

Best,
Ted

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