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wahoo
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:11 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

My 16 ga. inbound vintage British sxs, mentioned in an earlier post as being choked cylinder/cylinder is also chambered for 2.5" shells. This boxlock has been lengthened in the LOP, thus will need to be shortened for my fit. It has had one refinish done to the metal. Otherwise, it's all original as delivered in 1929. Condition is good, but I consider this a "shooter" grade gun due to the previous work done to it already.

With all this in mind, I am wondering if it would be a mistake to make further enhancements to gun, in order to bring it closer to what I desire it to be. Besides the LOP correction, I am considering the following modifications, and would like to hear some sage advice and opinions on whether or not what I'm contemplating is unwise or a good idea, and why. Here are the other things I'm considering:

1. Send the bbls off to Briley for evaluation, and potentially have flush screw-in chokes installed.
2. Have the chambers lengthened to 2.75", and forcing cones redone to match. This is a touchy one because this change would take the gun "Out of Proof" by British standards. I don't necessarily care about that beyond being certain that no unsafe condition is brought about by the chambers being lengthened. I know that there are measurements that should be taken and evaluated to address this from a safety perspective. I also know that I could have the gun sent back to England at great expense to have it "re-proofed" with the changes done, but since it's intended to be a "shooter" grade gun for me, and not an investment piece, that seems superfluous. Also, I do not intend to sell this gun in Britain where it's illegal to sell a gun "out of proof".

Just plan to shoot it until I can't any longer, and hope it goes to a good home afterwards.

_________________
1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: massachusetts

What I know about British bespoken doubles would probably fit into a thimble--and a small one at that. However, I've read that the barrels on these guns are carefully matched and the patterns regulated to each other by hand in a way not done much anymore. I'd personally be very leery about having the choke ends messed with--even if it's done by Briley. Once the barrel regulation is screwed up, it's going to take a lot of time and money to make it right again--if it's at all possible at that.

It's a lot easier to load your own rounds to your needs IMO. There are loading techniques from the age of fixed choke doubles which can tighten and open patterns to suit. One of them is to simply run some clear plastic tape around the plastic shot cup to hold the fingers together. This may or may not tighten up the pattern, but it is not very hard to try. Another tip is to go to the slower burning powders which are still suitable for the load. This helps to lower the load pressure and lengthen the pressure curve w/o lowering the velocity too much. Loads which a more gently shoved down and out of the barrel by slower burning powder loads with longer pressure curves tend to have stronger pattern cores than those which are slapped out of the barrel by faster burning powder loads which tend to have higher load pressures and more abrupt pressure curves. Trying both methods together just might help you find a way to tighten up the patterns w/o changing where they hit in relation to each other.

Why you may ask? In my experience, barrel regulation and pattern accuracy are a lot more important than pattern density. Putting the pattern core on the bird will cleanly kill it. Hitting the bird with the pattern fringe won't reliably and cleanly kill it. Clean kills are a lot easier on the dog and your legs --not to mention your pride. Wink
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Little Creek
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:15 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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Location: Anchorage, AK

I would not consider this gun as original as it has had refinish work. The term as original is over used in the US. "the gun is original EXCEPT for..." Means it is not original.

If you bought it knowing it was a "shooter" don't worry about changing the gun. Make it what you want.

I had one cyl and cyl gun and it was not very useful except for skeet. I like choke in my guns...

Have Fun!
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skeettx
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:33 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 15 Apr 2007
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Location: Amarillo, Texas

It is your gun, it should be usable for what you wish to do.
Make it happen

It is not a collector piece.

Enjoy it

Mike

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USAF RET 1971-95
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:59 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

SCs and some upland, I believe is roughly your earlier stated anticipated use.

Seems like '29' wood and SCs would fit the word "some" more than the upland deal but, regardless, I would pass on the possibility of choke tubes.
Cost and potential problems....and the reality of '29', being the reason.

Besides, try the C-C with the the SCs you will shoot and see....does not sound like a SC circuit is really in the mix.
For preserves and much upland, you may find the present chokes work....ok, with differing loads.

The chamber lenghening might be a good idea based upon how short....short is.
I would probably go longer if a good barrel guy says ..Go! ...but still shoot 2 1/2" shells for what those shells deliver.
I'd leave the cones alone...unless there is some oddity involved.

What length barrels are on this scattergun?
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wahoo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

These are 28" tubes. I am considering the changes mentioned, in the event I find the gun works so well for me, I would potentially take it into the dove fields too. Thus the idea of chokes for longer shots. Also, some of the sporting clays targets are out there a ways. The consideration of lengthening the chambers was in order to broaden my choices for ammo. I would not consider shooting anything heavier than 1oz loads, and primarily go with 7/8oz loads due to the age of the wood.

The reality is that I do feel apprehensive about messing around with these bbls, given the otherwise good condition of the gun. I plan to give her a go for a couple seasons, "as is", and decide from there. It isn't like I can't find something else to shoot as needed.

_________________
1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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JonP
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 694
Location: MN

I shoot B&P F2s out of my pre war Sauer that is choked .006 and .012. I have killed wild phez at 40 yds with that .006 barrel without a problem. I would hunt the gun first, pattern different 2 1/2 and 2 5/8 shells and see whetjer you need to really do all that work.
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Brewster11
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

Don't lengthen the chambers.

1. 2 1/2" shells will not pattern as well in a 2 3/4" chamber
2. The gun will no longer be in proof...because the chambers will be weaker!! How much? Maybe very little. Maybe a LOT! You won't know.
3. The gun will have less value. Yes, it might be harder to sell a 2 1/2" gun at a country gun show, but YOU will know that its value has been diminished, as will a discriminating buyer.

These might seem like pedantic reasons, but to me, lengthening 16ga chambers of an English gun is like the owners of nice mid-70s MGs or late-60s Triumph motorcycles who bore out the cylinders and replace the carbs for better performance. It's really a pity to see it.

It's also quite unnecessary. A wide range of 2 1/2" 16ga ammo is readily available on the internet including non-toxic loads, at similar or LOWER prices than 2 3/4" ammo from Rem, Win, Fed, etc. No, you won't find heavy goose loads in 2 1/2" shells, but maybe that isn't be best use for your gun anyway.

2 1/2" shells have the additional advantage of being EASIER to reload than 2 3/4" shells for all but heavy payloads. 1 oz loads are straightforward. There is no need to add breakfast cereal or other fillers to round out a 3/4 oz or 7/8 oz load in a 2 1/2" shell. 1 1/8 oz payloads are feasible with 2 1/2" shells but will need some extra steps like roll crimping.

You say it will simply be a "shooter", but that's really what most all our 16ga guns are anyway. Not many of us have sufficient means to keep a perfectly functional gun locked away in the cabinet to merely gaze upon it and gently fondle it. We own our guns to shoot them.

Regards,
B.
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stubshaft
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Posts: 95
Location: Southernmost State of the Union

It's a shooter. Modify it to YOUR hearts content and make it fit YOU. Then enjoy it!

_________________
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour. Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will. Place no faith in time. For the clock may soon be still."
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John Singer
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN

Brewster11 wrote:


1. 2 1/2" shells will not pattern as well in a 2 3/4" chamber


I am pretty sure that is a myth or urban legend.

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John Singer
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Dave in Maine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:08 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 1972
Location: Maine

The core problem with letting out the chambers in a gun like yours is that the barrels were struck around the existing "short" chamber length. The area of highest pressure is right downstream of the existing forcing cones and taking out metal in that area is asking for trouble.

I have a nice Belgian hammergun with 29.5 inch barrels and 2 1/2 inch chambers. I consulted with a friend who does a lot of gunsmithing on vintage doubles on just the question you're posing - whether to let out the chambers to 2 3/4. He reminded me that to get the balance, swing and simultaneous lighter weight of those long barrels, they had to be lightly struck and that it was therefore inadvisable to remove metal.

The same would obtain for changing the chokes or, worse, adding choke tubes. The latter require more meat in the muzzles than a lot of old guns have and if they're not done perfectly, you could easily wind up with worse than before.

Consider also the cost - putting tubes into shooter doubles can cost as much as or more than the gun is worth.

I think, as suggested above, that some rigorous, scientific testing of different loads and loading arrangements would be a better idea. Plus, that would mean a reason to shoot more, and how can that be a bad idea?

You can do what you want with your gun, but once the metal is gone it's gone.

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“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”
Frederick Douglass, November 15, 1867, speech in Williamsport, Pa.
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:21 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Dave in Maine wrote:
The core problem with letting out the chambers in a gun like yours is that the barrels were struck around the existing "short" chamber length. The area of highest pressure is right downstream of the existing forcing cones and taking out metal in that area is asking for trouble.

I have a nice Belgian hammergun with 29.5 inch barrels and 2 1/2 inch chambers. I consulted with a friend who does a lot of gunsmithing on vintage doubles on just the question you're posing - whether to let out the chambers to 2 3/4. He reminded me that to get the balance, swing and simultaneous lighter weight of those long barrels, they had to be lightly struck and that it was therefore inadvisable to remove metal.

The same would obtain for changing the chokes or, worse, adding choke tubes. The latter require more meat in the muzzles than a lot of old guns have and if they're not done perfectly, you could easily wind up with worse than before.

Consider also the cost - putting tubes into shooter doubles can cost as much as or more than the gun is worth.

I think, as suggested above, that some rigorous, scientific testing of different loads and loading arrangements would be a better idea. Plus, that would mean a reason to shoot more, and how can that be a bad idea?

You can do what you want with your gun, but once the metal is gone it's gone.


Well said.

We all enjoy the longed-for words of the enablers in our lives, we all wish to hear "go for it" in fulfilling our wishes but we would often be best served in the long run and wallet-wise by a dutch uncle not out to please.
Been there, lived that.

Good luck.

*as to short shells and long chambers, patterning is the only determiner there. Too many variables are involved besides inches of hull, imo.
I will run out the opinion that fiber wads ...may...work best in barrels seeing less fiddling with the barrel dimensions.
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double vision
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:29 am  Reply with quote
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I've got a Dutch wife and she knows how to spend. Confused
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Dave Erickson wrote:
I've got a Dutch wife and she knows how to spend. Confused


Very Happy ...Life is tough in the fast lane.
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16'er
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:46 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1393
Location: Tappahannock, Virginia

My personal approach is to use the appropriate length shells, loaded with stacked card loads, in short chamber guns. The type of shell the gun was designed for seems the best. Along with short chambers come short forcing cones. I’ve pattered some of these loads in a few of my guns and it leaves me wanting no further improvements.

With a block of wood, a washer, nail, dowel, set of lee scoop measures, a decent roll crimping die and a small drill press you’re in the reloading business. You’ll need a scale to verify powder measures as well. There’s also vintage roll crimpers if you don’t have a drill press already.
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