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Milo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:10 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Nov 2018
Posts: 23
Location: United States

As someone again, who grew up in North Dakota and on a ranch, most people only wanted to know who was on their land. Usually posted for deer hunting only though we also posted for goose hunting back in the 80's. The latter because we had many people just walking into pastures with cattle present to pass shoot geese coming off the nearby lakes. The fear was either herds would stampede amid gunfire...which they did, or someone would be hurt by one of our animals that didn't always look kindly on intruders. Our ranch easily encompassed traveling at least 20 miles from one side to the other. We had to hire people to 'watch' the land on weekends because even posted, people would violate the law and continue onto our property. As I've said before on this thread, I don't believe my dad ever turned anyone down who asked. As sportsmen and women, we need to respect the landowner and ask for permission. If the landowner isn't present, someone will know where he or she is at any given time. Do your research. North Dakota is notorious for ballot initiatives and I believe that is the next step and I believe that will change the law.

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:45 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Well, from what you just said, it doesn't sound like it would make any difference one way or other. If you posted it and people snuck in anyway, this law would not have changed that. Mavericks will be mavericks and unfortunately must be dealt with accordingly.

I know a few folks who simply put up permanent signs and that eliminated future costs and maintenance issues. They are all good about letting people hunt if asked and as mentioned, just want to know who is out there.

The changes that a few want are a double edged sword. On one hand, it removes one of the biggest incentives for hunters to visit. On the other hand, knocking on doors is a wonderful way to make lasting friendships and is largely how I became close friends with so many farmers in North Dakota.

The absolute truth of this whole situation? It likely never would have become an issue if the Baaken oil strike had never occurred. A tremendous influx of people from other areas with differing values and behaviors came as quite a shock to many NoDak residents and things did not always go well. A lot of very quiet locales suddenly became terribly busy, crowded, noisy, and anything but peaceful. Cultural disturbance like that always comes with a penalty. I have lived through several such events in my short life already. Perhaps things will continue to quiet down as has happened before.

In the end, my only hope is that the wishes of the majority of property owners is carried out, whether things remain as they are or this bill gets pushed through later. It's their home and thusly their choice.

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

As a son of NoDak with family and relatives farming many large parcels in the heart of ND pheasant country, it's hard for me to draw a line here. Yes, every season the grumbles and stories of annoying troublesome hunters from "The Cities" float around the dinner table and pickup trucks.

However I have NEVER seen any of my ND clan hesitate to slam on the brakes and grab the gun to knock down a couple Snows or a stalk a covey of huns if a field is unposted, not to mention the odd rooster that zips from the roadside into the shelter belt.

ND has truly been its self-labeled "Hunters Paradise" but nothing lasts forever and the handwriting is on the wall - hunting leases are the future. Farming margins are razor-thin and the extra few leasing dollars an acre will be warmly welcomed. I don't know anyone who likes the Texas model except landowners and insiders and the wealthy, but that WILL be the future for ND as well.

The small town motels will suffer, but then again I don't know anyone in that business. And as far as looking up the owner, GOOD LUCK! A close relative farms ten thousand acres of cropland but nobody knows his phone number or where in Arizona he lives, and he doesn't give it out.

The golden days of ND hunting were wonderful, but times change and I suppose we need to as well.

Cheers
B.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:53 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Milo,

Well said sir!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:35 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Brewster, I hope you're wrong about the evils of leasing taking over, but probably aren't. The whole idea of somebody passing a bribe to take what they want from everyone else really sours me. That's how crooked lawyers and politicians do business when nobody is watching and it is the single biggest threat to the future of hunting and wildlife management.

The young kids can't pay those leases or access fees and their future is being sold right out from under them. It's truly sad when they can support a drug habit for less money than a hunting habit. The alarming decline in resident hunters in South Dakota has squarely been blamed on that there problem. A 2012 nationwide study also revealed that over half of able bodied hunters who stopped hunting did so due to access/ cost issues. It is the elephant in the room and nobody wants to admit that this is why we are a dying breed. But, there is hope.

One part of North Dakota did see an upswing in commercial operations when pheasant numbers last broke records. The local landowners kind of rebelled after finding out that someone was paying to keep them off their neighbor's land. If you knocked on doors, you were asked if you were staying at a hunting lodge or with an outfitter. Those who were, got sent packing. For the most part, things went back to the way they locals liked it, but a lot more land is posted now because of it.

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

WyoChukar,

It's not just in the western part of the USA that this is having an effect here in Pa we now have a lot of posted land, however if you ask most times you are granted hunting permission. Especially if you are a bird hunter, even more so if you are a Grouse and Woodcock hunter.

We have lost a lot of hunters here in Pa mostly because the changes in era, lots of hunters have passed away or are now to old to walk the fields and forests, and the younger hunters can not afford to join the clubs that have the leases or permission to hunt some of the private land.

You are correct, our younger hunters are loosing their high to hunt because of the cost.

A while back I started a thread on the actual cost of hunting today, however not one person mentioned this fact. In fact some said it was not that costly to hunt even today. I do not agree with this opinion, in fact I agree with you it's one of the main reasons we have fewer hunter today.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:23 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

In years past, many timber lands and coal lands were open to public hunting as a result of tax incentives initially given...a trade-off for the company....a plus for generalist hunters.
Now with TIGs et al, those agreements and open land are disappearing...some states blessed with CF Acts and the like fare better but....Leasing is insidious....and deer hunting is driving the bus.
The Texas Leasing Model applied outside of Texas is often a disaster for access and for birds.....not to mention young, aspiring birdhunters.
there are other concerns too, even as our world changes around us.

Some said for example, RGS included, that timber lands were not in danger and no voice was needed.....they were wrong in the Appalachians and even Potlatch in the UGL saw some effects.
The loss of access and the negative effect to some birds as a result of leasing in some areas continues....on Private ie Corporate land.

That is but one reason why hunters and fishers for that matter need to lend their voice to issues affecting habitat, critters and even hunter issues beyond their home boundaries.
Voices are needed.....limiting voices out of a kindergarten fear of Socialism, private property trumpting or out of ignorance of core issues well beyond home is a killer.
Don't let your voice be shut down......get in the habit of commenting.
Some times we will be wrong, some times we will wasting our time but even once is enough to have a voice mean something.....mean something in the days when our voices are evermore being fractionalized by basement politicos and a decline in numbers.

Hunter issues follow habitat and species concerns for me but....commenting is a good habit to get into, regardless.

Imho
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

tramroad28,

I agree with you as to RGS and other organizations that have professional biologist on staff, giving advise in different areas of the country, individuals not so much.

Messing around with with hunting laws in a place you do not live is a looser, residence need to control their own state game laws, not outsiders. We have a lot of this pressure in Pa from outsiders, it never does any good.

IMO if you do not have a home or camp in the state you should never interfere with the game laws, just because you believe you have a better way to manage game laws. We have plenty of Ohio residence who have already mismanaged their own game laws, trying to influence our Pa game commission and our Pa Game laws. If these people want a say they should become residence or at the very least camp owners, and pay for the privilege of influencing the Pa game Commission.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

One thing to remember, from the perspective of those who actually pass the laws and regs, is this. Residents get priority, but both residents and non residents pay the bill for it all and thusly, outsiders do get some say. Get rid off the travelers and see how much more of the financial burden the residents must carry.

Now, on the other end of the stick...as outsiders it is our duty to actually understand the issues we comment on and to respect the way things are done where we don't live. If not, then it's wise to leave well enough alone.

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mtbirder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 189
Location: Montana

WyoChukar wrote:
One thing to remember, from the perspective of those who actually pass the laws and regs, is this. Residents get priority, but both residents and non residents pay the bill for it all and thusly, outsiders do get some say. Get rid off the travelers and see how much more of the financial burden the residents must carry.

Now, on the other end of the stick...as outsiders it is our duty to actually understand the issues we comment on and to respect the way things are done where we don't live. If not, then it's wise to leave well enough alone.


Not one of the www. and "social media's" strong point(s).
Easy to understand how even as info is closer at our fingertips than at any time in human history, one of the consequences we seem to suffer is that we aren't getting smarter.
Maybe why we're all better off just discussing which spent hulls work better........
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MaximumSmoke
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 pm  Reply with quote
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Hmm -- several interesting statements here. I grew up on a ND farm in a good area for waterfowl, sharptails and Hungarian partridge. I still go back there every year to hunt and also hunt other areas in ND for pheasants. Unlike one statement, by far most landowners who post will not give permission to hunt their land. Most landowners that post maintain their inaccessibility and do not supply contact info so you can ask permission. Their philosophy is "If I wanted you on my land, I wouldn't have posted it." In plainer words: "I posted my land, read the sign, that should tell you you're not welcome, so don't even ask."

In my kid days there were always folks who posted their land and restricted it to their own hunting, if it was hunted at all. My dad did not post our land. His philosophy was I won't post mine; you shouldn't post yours. Game belongs to all citizens, not to those on whose land it happens to be at the time. Philosophies in opposition to that produce unrealistic and illegal feeding and nurturing of game. (Yes it is nice of people to preserve habitat, but this goes beyond that.) Game animals then basically become "farm animals" -- practically pets. Despite the presence of a little of this idea 50 years ago, we still had plentiful access to good areas because few people posted. Now the place is overrun with guides, who can be quite hoity-toity and very threatening if you even look like you're watching "their game". They pay farmers for land access -- it really isn't a lease, it is pay for game taken. You might scout up a great goose feed in an un-posted field and show up there at 0 dark thirty and then find it suddenly posted. It happened. Later the guide shows up with his customers. When they are gone, the signs come down. This is BS.

The problem is there are more people out there hunting than there were 50 years ago. Sometimes there is not a lot of people, but the potential is there and once he has seen it, so is the guide, and he can lock up a lot of land very inexpensively. And for sure, there have always been some hunters that somehow can't understand how to respect the landowner's property. It is probably more noticeable now because of the numbers of hunters, but I'm not so sure of that. Anyway, it only takes a few bad apples -- drive anywhere, make noise, litter. Again, the real problem is too many hunters -- lots of folks with more leisure time, lots of folks coming in from other areas, which breeds a market for guide businesses which changes the way "hunting" is conducted -- makes for easy access if you pay enough, insures the "success" of the hunt for folks with enough money and time to drive out to a region which contains game, but no time or desire to actually conduct their own hunt. They want quick gratification. That's what "hunting" has come down to.
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WyoChukar
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:30 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 2124
Location: Hudson,Wy

Yeah, i hear you MS. There is a reason I never took up outfitting or guiding for money, and a few people certainly have tried to push me in that direction over the years. I won't do it, not for money. As a friend, yes. For cash, absolutely not.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
tramroad28,

I agree with you as to RGS and other organizations that have professional biologist on staff, giving advise in different areas of the country, individuals not so much.

Messing around with with hunting laws in a place you do not live is a looser, residence need to control their own state game laws, not outsiders. We have a lot of this pressure in Pa from outsiders, it never does any good.

IMO if you do not have a home or camp in the state you should never interfere with the game laws, just because you believe you have a better way to manage game laws. We have plenty of Ohio residence who have already mismanaged their own game laws, trying to influence our Pa game commission and our Pa Game laws. If these people want a say they should become residence or at the very least camp owners, and pay for the privilege of influencing the Pa game Commission.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


That is not what I said re RGS....reading comprehension is a good thing, Dave.

You may not have noticed but I also never commented here upon the individual ND senate bill...as I did not know enough about it.

I did eventually comment here on all folks adding their comments, residents, non-resident land owners and not, to an issue afield that has an effect, on residents, non-resident land owners and not.
If you hunt in a state or are concerned about an issue afield in a state that you do not hunt then you should consider not being afraid to voice an opinion regardless of what state is on your driver's license...or learning permit.
At some point, that attitude may help...somewhere closer to home, as well as educating oneself thru conversation to issues off your own stoop.
You got too birdy on the whole property rights/Socialism/political gig, as usual.

Ohio and Pennsylvania are no more alike re most physical factors and management potential afield than are figs and newtons.
Ohio is now, almost, a one-trick pony....PA is not, due to the differences noted and not because of their respective DNRs.
DNR blame, to the level most often taken on the Internet, is a dead-end two-track.

Again, give Opinion and Voice it's just due in a world larger than ourselves, accept being right and wrong at times and, hopefully, allow politics of Socialism, et al to remain in the sludge pit in the basement.
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16gaDavis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:23 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 2062
Location: canandaigua - western n.y. (formerly deerhunter)

WYO - even the Indian rezz has been leaned toward pay for play ... last trip we stopped at the Indian F&G to say hi to Jeff Kelly . He was being visited by a ''salesman'' trying to sell a bill of goods why the licenses should increase to pay for bird development . Got to be quite a discussion as we'ed walked about 30 mi and had seen few birds and no ''development !! We were there to lobby for LOWER fees as they were getting exorbitant !! Jeff just hid in the back ground .... as we go along out there , we've had to seek out residents and for the most they've been quite helpful . We know Standing Rock fairly well , but have had to seek out other places , including other reservations which have been OK . cheaper license fees , but they all have different takes on how to operate . I'm just happy with what we get and the cooperation we've had . Nick has had to be quite the salesman !!

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

Nonresidents are guests, they should abide by the laws of the state they are going to purchase nonresident hunting licenses in, not try to influence the game laws of that state. This crap of them helping to pay for the management cost when they do no reside there maybe true out west, however here in Pa resident hunters have always footed the cost for the PGC, if anything the nonresident license cost should at least equal those of the western states, and they are not even close. Pa resident hunters are still trying to figure how that happened. Politics stinks.

Nonresident sportsman trying to influence the game laws of other states where they do no reside is the worst kind of politics. We already have the federal government making game laws in each individual state as it is, which is also not right. The 10th Amendment forbids the US government from doing it, and the feds still do it.

You will never convince me that a nonresident hunter should ever have any say in state game laws, where he does not reside. Further no sportsman should be able to trespass on your private property for any reason without your permission. The land belongs to the individual that owns it, not the state Game Commissions or the Federal government.

Here in Pa it's always been tradition to be able to hunt on unposted land, however it is not the law, it's a tradition. Recently there have been reminders by the PGC that this happens to be the case, ask before you hunt.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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