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wahoo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:18 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

In discussions on another thread regarding opening up chokes or not, much was said about the different ways to skin the cat in achieving desired patterns for different applications. I have some basic questions in this vain but don’t want to hijack the other thread, so I’m asking them here. Let me start by saying I understand the benefits of thoughtful patterning and applying what is learned from that to your hunt. Where I fall behind, is in judging what is a satisfactory pattern for a given application. I realize that consistency and spacing of shot across the desired area is a goal. However, I lack much experience shooting upland game, and therefore am uncertain what constitutes a good strike volume of any given shot size on a particular bird, at various ranges. If I had that base line knowledge, I would then know better if I have achieved a proper pattern when performing that testing.

Therefore I ask for you experienced folks to offer your opinions on what’s a reasonable standard of shot strikes on a grouse or woodcock at the following ranges and shot sizes. Please advise any velocity caveats.
1. 10-25yrds, #7,7.5,8,9s
2. 25-40yrds, #7,7.5,8,9s

If you recommend larger shot in second bbl, what would that be? For the above questions, I only can imagine that for something like woodcock, shooting standard velocity #7.5s, I ought to try for six to ten strikes of shot on the bird out to 25yrds. Maybe in second bbl, shoot higher velocity #7s for 25-40 yrds? That’s the kind of info I’m looking for.

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1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:52 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Wahoo,

Getting down to actual shot count on a realistic pattern at different yardage out of my L.C. Smith 16 gauge double guns. The 20 and 28 gauge guns will have less shot most times hitting the bird because of less BB's in the shells.

Average shot count on the flat patterning steel, with SpredR loads.

Woodcock - min 6 to 11 shot on body with #8 shot, 25-30 yards (C) choke 1st Barrel. min 5 to 9 shot on body with #6's, 25-30 yards

Grouse - min 8 to 15 on body with #8 shot, 25-30 yards. (C) choke 1st Barrel
min 6 to 10 shot on body #6 shot, 25-30 yards

This is what the pattern shot count will look like on a flat patterning steel bird outline, in actual shooting in the woods however, less shot end up in the flying birds, depending on the talent of the gunner. This does change with the 2nd Barrel differently choked.


Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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wahoo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:15 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

In a 16ga. What oz loads of 6’s is generally adequate for those second bbl longer shots?

_________________
1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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wahoo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:40 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

The 16ga gun I’m hoping to use for woodcock is supposed to be cylinder/cylinder bores, but I’m finding that they don’t both act like that. On initial testing with RST 7/8 oz, #8’s, it’s putting @ 14 shot in a target the size of an iPhone 6, at 25 yrds with right bbl, and @ 22 shot with left bbl. Closer in at 16yrds, right side is putting @ 22 shot, left side @ 44! So I suppose I’m ok in the right bbl with that or try some spreaders for the real close areas. Still need to work on left at further ranges and heavier loads.

_________________
1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:08 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Wahoo,

2nd BBL, I use 2 3/4, 3 1/8 Dram, 1300 FPS, 1 1/8 Oz of #6 or #7 1/2, if I do not have SpredR loads in the 2nd Barrel. I use the Fiocchi or B&P when the foliage is thick or when there is lots of snow in the Hemlock tree branches.

I did not give you the shot count on these Fiocchi Shells coming out of the 2nd barrel.
Closer in at 16 yards these shells are going to tear a Woodcock to pieces, mess up a Grouse pretty badly also. They are not designed for up close shooting from our older double guns, the pattern is dense and heavy with shot close up. These shells are best at 30 yards plus for shooting birds, allowing time for the Pattern to develop, or for shooting thru heavy foliage and still killing the birds.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Wahoo,

With different manufacturers guns, even though the same gauge, things do change. In fact with every different gun the patterns seem to change. Even with the same shells.

My 16 Gauge J.P. Sauer Best Grouse Gun from the 1800's has IC and IM chokes and a better shot count on the body of the birds is achieved with the SpredR loads. However with the Fiocchi shells, the birds need to be even farther out to have the pattern develop fully. I use 2 1/2" SpredR loads in the old German Grouse Gun in both barrels, most of the time, just changing the 6's to 7 1/2's for shot count. Serious Grouse killing gun for sure. The 6's work well also, and probably kill just as well due to the difference in size and how far the 6's will actually carry. For shooting thru the edges of Hemlock snow covered tree branches or big snow covered grape vines, and still killing Grouse they are just fantastic.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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mike campbell
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:04 pm  Reply with quote
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Last edited by mike campbell on Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Mike Campbell,

What you say is true, upping the shot size works for penetrating thru the edges of trees and grape vines and still downing the birds. #6's are serious stuff in the thick Grouse woods. #5's are a little to large for the way I Grouse hunt, shreds the birds to pieces, especially inside 30 yards.

I Like your pattern board very very cool! I use something similar with just one life size bird to pattern on, this way I know exactly where the kill shots are located, and can see the over all pattern on the steel patterning stand, identifying any gap in the pattern.

I now wish we would have taken pictures of our pattern testing, they would have helped Wahoo with the actual shot count, per realistic bird body. The changes in shot size has a lot to due with the density of the foliage we are shooting thru at the time we are hunting. When the leaves are down and no snow in the Hemlock trees the 28 gauge with 7 1/2 shot is a perfect little Grouse and Woodcock gun. The 16 however is the work horse here in the Pa mountains.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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wahoo
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:42 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345

Well fellas, you have already helped immeasurably by sharing your reference points with me. Thank ya very much! This is the sort of discussion I would have held with hunting buddies over the years, had I any who hunt upland. All my circle of friends mainly focus on the three D’s, deer/duck/dove. Bobwhites were top on the list around here a generation ago, but the habit went away with the widespread use of Roundup, and the increase of hawks and coyotes have desimated the few wild ones that hung on.

_________________
1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28"
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Wahoo,

Glad we could help out. Let is know how things turn out.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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dannypratt
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:25 pm  Reply with quote
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Location: Napoleon, MI

I have to agree with Mike Campbell on the 1oz of 7.5 as most effective for grouse and woodcock. I use the same load, right about 1175, and I use it in my 16s AND 12s...dont ask why I'd carry a 12, sometimes it just grabs me.
I do find that older, fixed choke barrels do a more consistent job (for me) in the field & on the Clay's. It's probably psychological, but I do notice better harvest and better score averages and consistencies with fixed choke barrels. And for 99% of my grouse hunting with auto loaders or pumps, I shoot a I/C choke barrel. If I'm using my pre-war JP Sauer, its ~SK & ~I/M... I'm not sure what the original chokes were, they may have been those very same constructions, but I bought it from Steven Durren, a custom gun maker here in MI, and he had re stocked and restored it many years ago, then promptly never used, at which time i bought it. That choke combo with twin triggers and 1oz of 7.5.....dead birds as long as I do my part.
My pre-war Ithaca 37 with factory I/C was absolutely terror on birds with that loading...sold it...dumb. Same with my pre-war Savage Automatic with factory *** choke (probably cylinder, could be skeet, it's not recorded in any catalogs) with the same load is absolute terror as well. My pre-war Remington 31 with factory 26" MOD barrel is crushing on grouse and woodcock, and also pheasant (with 6s & 5s) out to 30yds, that choke reads closer to I/C according to gauge measurements, but that doesnt accurately measure the full length of the choke area.

I find the 1oz, 1175fps #6 load allows really strong squirrel and rabbit harvests, but only with modified or full chokes. I/C is just too open, either for distance issues or simply less pellet count per oz, therefore too open of a pattern. I shoot this combo thru either my Savage Automatic with 28" MOD or FULL barrels, or my Browning Auto-5 with 28" FULL (dont hit them as hard with MOD in the Auto-5) or again, the Remigton 31 with the 26" MOD marked I/C shooting barrel does a fantastic job. The Remington chokes are a funny thing from the early era thru at least 1960...they are very consistent in pattern, but not so much as to how they are marked on the barrel (in my experience) However, they are consistent in the ability to perform regularly with different brands. Hats off to Big Green.

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Good luck & great hunting,
-Danny Pratt
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byrdog
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:40 am  Reply with quote
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Location: the Moosehorn

Paper patterns are deceiving because it is a 1 dimensional picture of a 3 dimensional event. the best results I have found is to use the load on real birds so that I know which load works best. I note the load on the shell and then if it is a good load I note the result with the load data. If it is a stinker then I wont use it again.

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dannypratt
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:01 am  Reply with quote
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Byrdog,

You have an excellent point. I began keeping a journal about 10yrs ago or so, and I would record the weather, the wind, my gun and load for the day and to my best recollection, how each flush or shot panned out.

This really allows you to get a full picture of what is really happening for you and your gun consistently.

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-Danny Pratt
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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:05 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

There can be a lot of fun and learning in analysis, says the guy who patterned for Trap ad nauseam.
There can also be some confidence built.

Patterning for gamebirds can also be important relative to pattern placement and a simple try for even pellet distribution at distance but.....paralysis and silly are ever ready to jump in, ime.

An IC choke with somewhere around all sides of 1 ounce of 7 1/2s in any gauge will seldom be what can be blamed for a miss or a wounding of a small to medium gamebirds....a great starting point in the real world.

Success arrives from a combination of waaay more than pellet strikes, imo.
Pellet strikes are a bit tough to repeat and...place consistently.

Have fun....don't get high-centered on a very small rock.

Edit....can't say I ever defeathered a bird to determine the total number of pellet strikes that worked to ever begin to determine an average to shoot for.
Bird tracings......a bit like someone drawing a circle using a clay target.
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mike campbell
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:18 am  Reply with quote
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Rolling Eyes


Last edited by mike campbell on Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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