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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:11 am  Reply with quote
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I continue to read posts on this and other sites where someone who has obviously become much more enlightened than me proclaims that English stocks, splinter forends and double triggers is the only way a "proper" SXS should be configured. Are they really serious or is this some inside joke I've been missing out on? Personally, I find the POW, round knob or relaxed pistol grip places my right wrist in a much more natural position than a straight stock. The splinter forend where you have to grip the barrels seems like a silly waste of wood, why put anything on there if you're going to have to grab hold of the barrels? Oh yeah, you still need the forend iron to make the gun work. A properly proportioned semi-pistol grip like I prefer allows you to use the wood up front as something to hang onto rather than just a covering for the iron. Double triggers look like something that should never have happened. You have to do a mental calculation of which barrel to shoot and then move your finger to the correct trigger. I find that hunting over a couple of great pointing dogs, the right barrel fired by a single trigger is nearly always correct. I have never hunted with someone shooting double triggers who said they fired the left barrel first. Maybe there are guys hunting without dogs or with untrained dogs who need and use those things, but they certainly aren't for me. I'm all for hunters using the guns they want to use, I just question that there is a superior choice that anyone "who knows" will always choose.

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tramroad28
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 625
Location: Ohio..where ruffed grouse were

Riflemeister wrote:
.... I'm all for hunters using the guns they want to use, I just question that there is a superior choice that anyone "who knows" will always choose.


I agree...same for gauge. Idea

I admit that I have gone to a back trigger(top barrel in my case, yet to happen with a SxS) first, when the option seemed wise.
As I recall one season when I kept track, that option was taken 4-5 times...success was about 3 times and the decision may have actually made a difference, once.
DTs, a PolyChoke, a POW grip...whatever, need only satisfy those who choose them.

"....hunting with....untrained dogs who need those things"....is insulting to the dogs.
People always end up saying too much.....they might wonder why.
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Chicago
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:36 am  Reply with quote
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OK, I will bite. However, before I make any comment, everyone should use what is comfortable for them and gives them the most confidence. I am not going to tell you the traditional English set up is the gospel.

The rationale for a straight stock and splinter forend has to do with the fact we point a shotgun and our eye is the rear sight. So the logic for the traditional English set up is to get your left hand and finger the closest to the barrels and your right hand oriented for the best alignment of the eye to the front of the barrels, even though you should never be looking at the barrels. The theory is that they are always there in your peripheral vision. Presto you have the best alignment for a successful shot, or so goes the logic.

As far as double triggers every gunsmith I have ever known feels they are more reliable for a SxS, although there are exceptions. Most older English guns had the single trigger system set up to rebound off the wood in the stock and over time that wears out and becomes problematic. Whether that is still the case I can’t tell you.

I shoot double triggers and I frequently go to the back trigger first and I never really think about it, my finger just goes there if the bird is further out. I run pointing dogs and sometimes the bird gets up 20+ yards out and for me my right barrel is close to cylinder so by the time you mount and shoot the bird is at 25+ yards (the edge of my chokes range).

With all of this said I am not aware of a single national champion in skeet, trap or sporting clays that use a SxS. They all use O/U and I doubt it is simply tradition. I am not sure of this but I believe most of those guns are set up with a pistol grip or possibly a half pistol (I think Browning calls that a round knob and the English call it a Prince of Wales grip).

As you stated there are lots of folks that feel the English set up is the best, but the debate may just boil down to a simple one, sort of like do you like blondes or brunettes.

Good Hunting,
Mike
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:47 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Riflemeister,

What you are talking about is the view of many of the older traditional double gun owners. No doubt about it I am one of those people who advocates for Double Triggers, the other stock configuration is an individual choice. I have just about all the different configurations of stocks on my Classic American and German Best double guns, I actually like all of them, even the German guns with the cheek pieces.

Now to address this garbage of an untrained bird dog in your post. It is all foolishness, if you actually mean it, you know nothing about well trained gun dogs or DT guns.

In fact a lot of hunters fail to use the DT gun properly, especially if they have been raised with SST guns. Most Pheasant hunters seldom learn to use a DT double gun, in the open fields the DT is not all that necessary. The DT use is definitely a learned entity that comes with experience, especially in the Grouse Woods. From your post it looks as if you have never learned the proper use of a DT double gun. In many cases the younger generations that are not traditional Grouse hunters have never been taught the correct usage, and just why instant choke selection, with different shells, under the different triggers is a great advantage, in the Grouse woods.

In reality this all comes down to experience, to the hunter with little experience with a DT double gun the DT seems to be a non-requirement. It usually takes about 5 years and a mentors teaching, for a young Grouse hunter to appreciate and fully understand the DT proper usage. After that time most experienced Grouse hunters prefer a DT on their Grouse Guns.

Being able to instantly choose different shells from different choked barrels, opens up a completely new & different hunting experience using the DT gun. No SST gun can match it in the Grouse woods.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

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steve f
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:13 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 147
Location: N. Georgia

I've shot about every configuration, including pistol/splinter (which is supposed to be the most awkward). When there's a bird in the air I don't even notice which type I'm shooting. They all feel fine to me and I don't know that I've killed more birds with one than the other. As far as looks I prefer the straight grip and splinter, but a straight grip with a semi-beavertail looks good too, especially in smaller gauges.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:17 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
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Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

steve f,

You are absolutely correct, when the bird is in the air and the adrenaline is pumping stock configuration means very little, and the longer you hunt wild birds the less it seems to mean.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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BarkeyVA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:16 pm  Reply with quote
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I guess I am lucky that my dad bought a used Marlin Model 90DT O/U when I was 14. So, shooting DT’s is not an issue. And, in many years of hunting doves and pheasants I have probably pulled the back trigger first no more than 6 or 8 times. It definitely made a difference on shots over 40 yards.

I am not much for tradition. I have owned SxS’s, including some with a straight stock and splinter forearm, and have been reasonably successful hunting with them. However, I do prefer the O/U or single barrel guns with pistol or Prince of Wales grips.

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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Riflemeister I have always wondered the same thing and agree with you 100%. I will also add raised rib. Not sure who started the straight stock, splinter, double trigger thing but many do seem to drink the Kool Aid. At some shoots they award points to your gun based on double triggers, straight English stock, splinter, etc. to make sure it is a "real" SxS LOL.

Yet those that could afford a fully optioned Ithaca NID did not have any of that and also optioned for the raised rib. For a reason.



And the same with most of the Winchester 21's



Guess those aren't really true SxS guns according to some. About all I can think of is you have to be chitting me.

Miller Trigger Co. is still in business but moved from Pa. to NY. And still do conversions for NID's Foxes Parkers and L.C. Smith guns. $1,250-$1,800.

http://www.millersingletrigger.com/services.html

Must be enough people wanting single triggers to keep the Company around for 100 years.
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Byron Whitlock
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:43 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 488
Location: Oswego, Kansas

I bought my first double gun in 2006. A single trigger CZ Ringneck 16ga and have enjoyed that gun for many years. The only problem was that after the first two months or so of shooting sporting clays with it each week it began to fail to change to the second barrel after the first shot, regardless of which barrel was fired first. A call to CZ had me sending them the gun and a couple weeks later I received a new gun that I have enjoyed since with no problems.
In 2015 I bought my first LC Smith 16ga, a field grade, and had no problem adjusting to the double triggers. I have since bought two more LC Smith guns, a 16ga Ideal grade and a 20ga field. The 20ga is commonly used for skeet and I use the back trigger first on the doubles since the right barrel is more open and the oncoming target is always closer.

My latest double that I have only had a couple weeks is the first to have a straight stock( CZ Bobwhite 28ga won in a gun giveaway by CZ) and I have really enjoyed it. The double triggers work fine but I don't have to worry about pulling the rear trigger firstsince the gun is fitted with choke tubes from the factory.

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old colonel
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:39 pm  Reply with quote
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I find straight or English grips with double triggers is what I like, but as other posters have made clear it is a matter of taste and what you are used to. Most importantly what you have extensive practice with.

I do not believe straight grips are uniquely superior to half pistol or Prince of Wales POW grips. That said while some people are capable of shooting different grips moving back and forth between different types without problems others cannot move back and forth.

As for the utility of straight grips for moving between double triggers, For me I find no difference. I do note I do not have any full pistol grip double trigger guns.

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Riflemeister
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:42 am  Reply with quote
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I will readily admit that single triggers are more likely to fail than double triggers unless both are properly maintained. Single triggers require more parts (not counting actual triggers) and are definitely more difficult to fully understand their functioning. I actually enjoy studying the various mechanisms that have been designed to switch barrels on a single trigger gun, most are quite ingenious in their design.

Byron, the CZ Ringneck has a small clothespin type wire spring on the trigger piece intended to return the trigger after one barrel is fired and allowing the selector block to engage the second sear. That little spring can weaken and cause a failure to engage the second barrel. You can check if that is the problem by pushing forward on the trigger to reset and then seeing if the second barrel will fire. I did an entire sage grouse hunt having to push the trigger forward after firing on a 20 ga Ringneck. CZ USA mailed me a couple of new spring for free.

PCD, I know you are a dog trainer and as such, you surely know many hunters whose dogs are pure disaster. I hunted with one dog owner in Alabama who trained (or failed to train) his GSP to flush birds. My dog would go on point and his would run over to flush the bird before we could get in range. I was afraid my dog would start taking birds out and had to call off our hunting together. I do run my dogs in field trials in addition to wild and pen raised birds just to get a feel for how they stack up to other dogs. They do just fine, thank you for your concern though.


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MSM2019
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:57 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
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Location: Central ND

Pistol grip, single trigger, one barrel, repeater with .015” of choke.

Not showy or classy, but very effective on all upland birds worth shooting at!! Cool Cool

Couple years ago I bought a SxS with DT’s and a POW grip, still trying to figure out why!!

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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:34 am  Reply with quote
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Riflemeister, everybody has different tastes, shoot whatever the hell you want. PCD, don't assume you are the only one who knows anything.

Dale

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double vision
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:43 am  Reply with quote
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Riflemeister, based on your hunting your SXS configuration preference sounds pretty perfect to me. You have well-trained GSP's, so I can't think of anything better than a lively, user-friendly SxS set up in that fashion. Up-on-bang-fetch!
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Cheyenne08
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:01 am  Reply with quote
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Dave Erickson wrote:
Riflemeister, based on your hunting your SXS configuration preference sounds pretty perfect to me. You have well-trained GSP's, so I can't think of anything better than a lively, user-friendly SxS set up in that fashion. Up-on-bang-fetch!


+++1.

Dale

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