16ga.com ~ View topic

Lets face it, they don't call us gun nuts for nothing. We all have our convoluted lines of logic as to why we pick the guns we do.

In our modern times, old shotguns tend to conjure up nostalgic feelings and a yen for the good old days. Trust me, I love the look and feel of the the best of the old timers myself. I just can't shoot them the way most of them are stocked, nor do I see the sense in buying and old gun to turn it into a new one. I'd rather buy one for the wall, to gaze at and dream of those glorious days of the past.

I have an old rabbit earred damascus Parker built in the late 19th century just for that. I got it at a yard sale for a few bucks from someone's grand daughter who did not want it in her house contaminating her kid's minds with those same old visions I tend to get looking at it. I polished off the rust, crust, and dust to find a nice old gem I'll never, ever shoot, but love to fondle and dream about. Its a fine wall hanger that deserves to be retired and admired, so I do just that.

For a shooter, I put my money into what I've found to be the best modern gun for the job I can afford. When it comes to an upland piece, give me a 16 ga. Citori Lightning or Superlight anytime. That's my choice and I'm sticking to it. ...Or, a 16 ga. Ithaca 37...or an Aya Mattie...or a 16 ga 409 Beretta ...or a..well, you get the picture. So many guns, so little time. Laughing

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I hear ya - But I couldnt resist going back. I know I coulda bought a citori and wouldve been non-the worse for it. And, the old guns don't fit me either unless they are superposed's. But, I will either learn new technique so that I can shoot the old girl- or partially modify (never re-stock) to gain advantage. No, this sterly will stay original except for a reblue. It will only become a wall hanger when I become a wall hanger. Life is too short to not deploy an American classic. And I know I can get a citori anytime.

Yup, I hear you. Maybe some day, some enterprising company will look at these fine old classics and recreate them with a modern stock with a price tag the average guy can afford. I do not understand why, given the materials and technology we have today, that some of the very best designs can't de redone faithful to the original design in all but the stock lines without the, in my opinion, rediculously high price tags being asked.

The Sterlingworth was the Citori of its time. It was a darned good, well made, reasonably priced, mass produced shooter offered to the lower middle class hunters and sportsmen of the day.

I've heard all the arguments about all the hand fitting these guns needed to be made right in support of the high cost of making them today. Well, lets think about it for a moment. The hand fit from machined parts method was the one most commonly used during those times. It was the cutting edge technology of its day.

Today, with the ultra accurate computer driven cutting and milling tools, plus the more accurate and longer lasting cutting heads, much of that hand fitting needs not be done anymore. The various parts can be made to much tighter tolerences both faster and cheaper. The guns can go together with out all the hand fitting and still perform as well or better than the originals.

How do you think guns like the Citori are made? It has more parts with necessarily closer tolerences. It is a more complicated design, not less. Yet they are being made and sold at prices entirely in line or better than what a Sterlie or a Parker, or any of the other SxS classics would have sold for in their day.

Virtually no manufacturer of doubles hand regulates barrels anymore either. the barrels are machined or hammer forged to very tight tolerences, and then assembled in accurate jigs that orient them to shoot very close to the same POI. The result is more, not less accurate barreel sets by and large.

Its all very possible today, but these old guns have been bypassed by time and demand. We have more modern designs which shoot at least as well, sell for prices at least as good, and will last at least as long. Society spurns an anachronism. Us folks who love these old guns are just that.

So I accept the old guns as part of history, and have adopted the new guns of today for general, practical use. Some of you guys might see that as a character flaw, others see it as being practical. I just love shooting and don't really worry about it all.

However, If I'm ever offered a well recreated classic style SxS with a modern style stock at the same price as a grade I Citori, you better believe I'll buy it and shoot the hell out of it. Come to think of it, I've already done that with my nice old AyA Matty, a fine low priced SxS in it's own right. So is the 409 Beretta. Nuff said, lets go shoot some.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

No charachter flaw - I'm very close to how you feel. So close I could have gone the other way because what you say makes so much sense. But it also doesnt seem like its ever gonna happen so I bit the bullet. Look at the junk Marlin has mass produced under the LC Smith banner - hideous if not sacraligious! Hate to say it, but look at the Citori. It aint the same gun as a Superposed and never will be. As advanced as machinery has become it still can't replace the human hand. Tell me that even if the MFG origin was blocked out on the Superposed and citori you couldnt immediately tell which was which - kinda like a citori brand - like lightning. So maybe the technology has not advanced enough yet which is surprising but I sure havent seen any proof otherwise.

I've owned and shot a fair share of both the Grade I Superposed and Grade I Citori shotguns. Based on pure experience, if given a choice for dependability and problem free shooting, I'll take the Citori over the Superposed every time. I'm not talking cosmetics in the higher grades like engraving, carving, wood quality, etc. It is hardly fair to compare a Diana grade Superposed against a Grade 6 Citori. Far more embellishment is lavished on the Diana model, but the price is some three times as high. I'm talking basic workmanship, fit, and function on a grade I basic gun, a shooter.

I've never had a Citori double on me. I've had several near new Superposed models do so. I've owned one that just would not fire the bottom barrel if the top one was selected first. Even the factory service department could not fix it after three tries. They replaced it with a high grade Citori in the same gauge which has never given one hiccup in some 20+ years of service. I've never seen a rib or the barrels of a Citori come apart. I've owned one Superposed that shed its rib, and seen quite a few others that did the same thing. I've seen two come apart at the muzzle too. I've never seen a Citori rust to junk due to cheaply aged ,salt cured wood wreaking havoc on the metal it abutted. I've seen a bunch of Superposed models do just that. The list goes on.

I saw the prices of used Superposed guns skyrocket after 1975, only to settle out and then actually back up as many other folks came to the same conclusions I have about quality of work and dependability. the Citori models are still climbing. I'm betting that if they are ever discontinued (and I believe that is inevitable sooner than some migh think) the prices for clean used Citori models will go straight up without the fall from grace the Superposed guns went through.

The difference between a well made, soundly designed gun and a poorly made one is Quality Control. I have to say Miroku's QC record beats FN's record all hollow. I've seen the QC of both companies ebb and flow, but percentagewise, Miroku has made far fewer poorly made guns over a longer period of time to boot if you toss in the Charles Daly O/U line into the mix.

A well made Superposed is a fine gun. so is a well made Citori. There are more well made Citori models than superposed guns out in the ranks from what I have seen.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I have had the exact opposite experience and keep in mind the youngest superposed Ive ever owned was 1973 two years ago. The absolute only beef with those guns I ever had was the difficulty in taking off the fore end.
Cosmetically I suppose is very subjective but for me I will take a grad I superposed any day over a citori grade I. Then of course there is the saltwood issue but I ve learned how to avoid that. Couldve happened to any MFG -especially one known for quality looking to be more competitive which is what ultimately led them to Japan. The feel and balance of the citori is also not quite as good (for me) as the superposed (especially the lightning) The ribs coming off older superposed guns can happen. But again, how many Citori's have even been around l;ong enough for that to happen. That can happen to any old gun even some of the finest quality SXS's. Just an opinion thing I guess. But I wouldnt trade a good condition superposed Grade I for 3 Citori grade I's, especially in the lightning model.

And that is why guns are as subjective an item. We've all had somewhat different experiences with different guns. Guns fit and function differently for different folks. As they say, one man's meat is another's poison. It's the same with dog, cars, and beer too. There's no explaining it and no need to really. I say shoot what you like. Just do it safely and with common courtesy--the mark of a sportsman.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Not to try and get the last word or anything, but FN (are you kidding me?) has an amazing track record. Kinda like the old range master said to me the other day when I was checking zero with my JC Higgins model 50 FN Mauser. He said: "Man, thtas some of the best metal ever put out, you just can't get metal like that anymore". That gun is an early 60's 30-06 and still sub MOA. The only thing I ever replaced was the trigger and not cuz it wore out. It had a bit too much creep so dug in and set it up with a new Timney trigger adjustable. In our collective heads? Maybe. But theres just something about "Made in Japan" us American nimrods have trouble wrapping our minds around. Do I own Japanese Brownings? Yes, especially for target games. Have millions of folks managed to overlook "Made in Japan when it comes to shotguns - yes. But, (and I firmly believe this) the only reason is because the name Browning is stamped on the gun. If the name was Miroku gun sales would be less no doubt in my mind. So, in effect, folks sre still buying those guns the reputation of Browning was built upon.......and that is FN produced guns. And, fortunately the John Moses Browning design was so good that nobody can really mess it up. If anything, it has been improved upon. But then, I own two Harley Davidsons, a GMC Truck..........and oh my gosh, a Subaru Outback. Only becasue of what happened to gas prices and I drive about 45-50K per year.Enough of this rambling....I have to jump in my Japanese car, grab the Fox and head East to the happy hunting grounds to see if I can kill some quail, chukar or ditch doodles.

16gg,

I'm not about to try and change your mind about non-steel framed O|U shotguns. I know enough that aluminum can never be steel. I was aware that the B. Rizinni Aurum Light I bought has an alloy frame yielding a 6 pound gun. It is a field bird gun, primarily...carried much, shot little. But even shooting thousands of clay birds from my Aerial Assualt thrower shouldn't tear it apart. At least in my lifetime.

There are some pretty heavy duty parts made from aluminum alloys these days. How many steel car wheels do you see? Yeah some, but most are aluminum to lower unsprung weight. If they were unsafe the government wouldn't allow them. Do you know that the ZO6 Corvette (505 horsepower--fastest production car on the planet, 198 mph) uses a hydro-formed frame and suspension components of aluminum alloy? Not to mention pistons and valve spring retainers, to name a few parts that do not have to be made from steel to serve their purpose. And under warranty, to boot!

S&W and other revolver manufacturers use aluminum and other exotic alloys in magnum handguns. I have a Taurus 5 shot snubby, 45 Colt, made totally from titanium. And it is not relegated to wimpy cowboy action ammo. Full power 14kpsi SAAMI max pressure don't phase it. Although its light weight makes shooting a cylinder full sting my hand a little.

My point is for you not to discount alloys. They are all around our modern world, doing some very heavy duty jobs you thought just HAD to be made of steel. Forged, heat treated grade 7075 aluminum has a tensile strength greater than steel at 83kpsi. That's my 2 cents.

Thanks Funzer, but if you don't mind, I'll stay in my cave and play with my prehistoric toys. I'm happy in all the smoke and gloom. Besides, the fungus on the walls sometimes glows in the dark and looks exactly like the face of Elmer Kieth, my hero. Laughing

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

As a heads up, since this thread closed I have met 2 people that had alloy brownings crack at the receiver in the last week. They were high volume sporting people, but still........... Just reinforced my belief to stay away from alloy guns. Both guns were XS Feathers.

If anyone really wants the full Monty. My shooting partner has a NEW IN THE BOX 16 ga. Citori Grade 6 he has decided to let go.
$3150.00

If there is any interest let me know.

Brad