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< 16ga. General Discussion ~ Herters Shells....not so happy |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:37 am
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Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 722
Location: Napoleon, MI
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Hey Fellas,
Probably old hat, but I thought I'd give a brief review.
I picked up some 1oz Herters #6 from Cabelas a few weeks ago. They had 2 boxes in the entire store, so I cleaned them out.
Got out to do some rabbit, grouse and pheasant hunting (yes, amazingly I can pull that off in the same state land area close by) and had a dandy shot at a Ringneck, which I missed on the first shot....and a major jam between that shot and a full disassembly of my Savage Automatic in the middle of waist high prairie grass. Thought possibly it was the gun...the first fired shell did not extract from the chamber and when the barrel was returning forward, a second shell was released from the magazine and into the reciever. My second "shot" was a click...so I manually pulled the bolt back. Which was stuck on the shell casing, which was jammed in the chamber from expansion. Once I got the bolt back with considerable profanity directed at my 85 year old Savage, the "floater" shell in the reciever jumped upward on the lifter and the bolt rocketed forward, pinching my thumb and allowing the "floater" shell to become wedged between the lifter, the back of the the bolt and the top of the chamber. It crushed the live shell in the process and severely fouled up the entire gun. Upon disassembly I found the bottom edge of the bolt had just barely missed impacting the primer. TERRIFYING. I hoofed it 1/4 mile back to the truck, nearly hurled the gun into the bed of the truck (didnt) and retrieved my Browning Standard 16 Auto 5 and hoofed it back into the field. On the next flush....boom, clattery shuffle, SNARL,...nothing. Turned the gun in my hand and, I'll be damned, identical issue, but this time shell ejected itself, but out of time, and caused the identical jam but now slightly advanced with a live shell crushed between barrel and bolt. Massive expletives were released into the air and another trip to the truck. This time I retrieved my 1936 Remington 31....loaded it up, CYCLED it empty 4 or 5 times, was sufficiently happy and proceeded to trudge back out to the fields. An hour later, amazingly, a bird lifted, got a shot in that sounded like a wet fart.....immediately cycled the pump rearward, but couldnt. Shell was jammed tight in the chamber. Emptied magazine, and went back to my truck purple faced and leaving a trail of charred grass from my language. Managed to get the action open back on the tailgate...but tore the shell from the base doing it. Got my plumb bob (I'm a carpenter so had my tools with me) and dropped it down the barrel.....6 times. A mangled, wad came out along with the shell casing.
I took the remaining shells to work the next day, both boxes, and dropped them down a SonoTube foundation caisson while we were pouring cement down the caisson. They can live on as an archeologist find in the year 2200....
Never Again....my one day I had was utterly ruined thanks to Herters shells....I was a total fool to not pack another box or two from Winchester or Remington.
Damn. |
_________________ Good luck & great hunting,
-Danny Pratt |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:58 am
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Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1256
Location: Nebraska
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Wow, took out the primary and two backups! Feedback of that type to Cabela's might be part of why they discontinued those shells. Sorry to hear of the day they served up for you and your guns. |
_________________ Bore, n. Shotgun enthusiast's synonym for "gauge" ; everybody else's synonym for "shotgun enthusiast." - Ed Zern |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:10 am
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 345
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I'h have liked to know what caused all this rukus. If the shells were loaded wrong somehow, what was wrong? Would help troubleshoot other issues in the future when I start reloading shot shells. |
_________________ 1929 Thomas Bland 16ga SxS 28"
1947 Browning A5 16ga 28"
1948 BRNO 16ga SxS 27.5"
1949 Stevens 530 16ga SxS 28"
1950 Stevens 311A 12ga SxS 30"
1952 BRNO 12ga SxS 28.25"
1963 Superposed O/U 12ga 27"
1968 V Bernardelli SxS 12ga 28" |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:03 pm
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Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 601
Location: Virginia
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The Herters have a tendency to stay oversize after firing instead of contracting a bit. They especially stick in rough chambers. Not saying that is your problem, but it wouldn't hurt to check. |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:05 pm
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Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 722
Location: Napoleon, MI
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DanLee,
Yes. I believe the issue was the shell bases expanding and binding, even in the automatics (both Browning long recoil actions) the second jammed shell in the magazine/receiver/bolt jam was due to the binding of the shell base, which caused the mechanism to "time out" and feed improperly.
Wahoo,
The third mess was due to an under loaded factory shell, or a bad primer etc (dont know which, I'm not a reloader so I'm not totally familiar with the causes of Squib loads)
Also, additional info....I had just previously taken all three guns out for one or two games each of Trap, and I experienced absolutely zero issues with any of the three. I was shooting the Winchester game loads and Remington game loads....nary a hiccup, auto or pump.
I've got to say, the style of the jam in the A-5 type actions was incredibly dangerous...one of the shells only needed a slightly greater angle and the bolt edge would have slammed into the primer....in an open action...with an unchambered shell....wedged against the lower section of the barrel extension.. whoa. |
_________________ Good luck & great hunting,
-Danny Pratt |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:57 pm
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Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN
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Danny, hunt with a 16 gauge Savage 720. Herters shells regularly fail to extract.
My hypothesis is that the base wad and "brass" is constructed such that upon firing, gases bypass the base wad and cause the rim to expand. This causes the single extractor to slip off the rim leaving the shell in the chamber.
I have not experienced this with the older Federal shells. |
_________________ John Singer |
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Posted:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:53 pm
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Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 722
Location: Napoleon, MI
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John Singer,
I believe you are correct in that suggestion.
And I bought the old Savage Automatic right here in Jackson....you know the place... hope MN is treating you well! |
_________________ Good luck & great hunting,
-Danny Pratt |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:06 am
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Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 3370
Location: The Great Northwet
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I shot several flats of them and never had a single issue. Hmm. Weird. |
_________________ Gun art: www.marklarsongunart.com
Gallery art: www.marklarsonart.com
The man's prayer from the Red Green Show: "I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess." |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 am
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Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2787
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa
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Uncle Dan,
Never really have any problem with them in my L.C. Smith, LeFever or German double guns, have seen other guns that do have problems with them however. Have not used any of the newer shells however.
Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man |
_________________ "L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:19 pm
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Member
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Columbia, SC
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Were these the "old" Herter's made by Cheddite in Italy or the "new" Herters made by Winchester in the USA? |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:13 pm
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Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 398
Location: Rochester, MN
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dannypratt wrote: |
John Singer,
I believe you are correct in that suggestion.
And I bought the old Savage Automatic right here in Jackson....you know the place... hope MN is treating you well!
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I think that I recall you purchasing that gun. I saw it on the rack at the gun shop.
I have zero problems with Herters Cheddite hulls in my SxS. However, the semiautomatic often fails to extract with hunting loads. Target reloads are more reliable. I am thinking that the increased pressures of hunting loads expand the hull rim.
Minnesota has been an adventure. I just got home from a weekend of duck hunting Pool 9 of the Mississippi River in Wisconsin. Had a great time. Three of us limited out on canvasbacks today. |
_________________ John Singer |
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Posted:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:48 pm
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Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 722
Location: Napoleon, MI
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JS,
Very cool indeed. Havent done any duck hunting yet this year. Soon tho.
Fellas,
I will check tonite where the shells were made. Kept one flattened box as a coaster on my desk...I'll update as to where they were made. |
_________________ Good luck & great hunting,
-Danny Pratt |
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Posted:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:36 pm
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Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 546
Location: Ohio
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My Ithaca 37's do not like Herters. The brass will bulge into the extractor notches in the barrel and the extractors just slip off the rim. |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:08 pm
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Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 392
Location: St. Charles, MO
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Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Member
Member
Here is my previous post about that very issue
Guys,
If you will look at the rims of the Herters vs. say RGL,s (in 16gas. anyway) you can see a difference in the L part of the brass wall to the rim portion, the RGL,s will have a 90 degree, where as the Herters have a bevel effect or slight radius in the L part causing some extractors to roll over the rim and not grasp the rim to pull it out. SXS and OU seem to have more surface contact to push on the rim with and doesn't have a problem. Hope that explanation in verbiage is adequate.
Griff |
_________________ Griff |
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Posted:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:36 pm
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Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.
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dannypratt wrote: |
John Singer,
Minnesota has been an adventure. I just got home from a weekend of duck hunting Pool 9 of the Mississippi River in Wisconsin. Had a great time. Three of us limited out on canvasbacks today.
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Mr. Pratt I can not believe that you let JS leave Mi. He is making such a dent in the wildlife population here in Wi. Iowa and Mn. that the DNR is considering making changes. Oh and that includes fishing...
On the other hand it is nice to have a gunsmith that can tweak my 16 ga. gun trigger pulls so that are acceptable. I consider that a good compromise. And he is a pleasure to shoot clays with so there is that...
As mentioned there is a lot of issues with older guns and extraction with newer hulls that are actually steel and brass washed. Which expand rapidly and then don't cool down as fast as brass. That is not limited to the Herters shells.
What did happen from my experience is that toward the end of the contract between Cheddite and Cabela's the shells definitely took a hit quality wise.
Going to go guess here but if I was a betting man these are new old stock of the previous Herter's shells.
My older Herter's (Cabelas) shells worked fine in most of my guns. The last batches not so much and I have 13 flats of them purchased in the last 6 months before they were discontinued so use them in my SxS now. And FAIR O\U. In the new Sweet 16 for clays and doubles I use a Federal 16 first then feed it a Herter's. Because there is going to eventually be an issue with the Herter's ejecting.
Hunting I use Federals. Period. And always have. With light weight 37's and some of my other guns use 7/8 oz. DR wads and Cheddite's. But moving away from that although I was an early adapter of light loads across the board. Have gone full circle I guess. |
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