16ga.com ~ View topic - An Affair With Grouse

Gentlemen,

I have been rereading many of my old American Classic Sporting books. An Affair with Grouse by George Bird Evans happens to be one of those great sporting books. If you are a Grouse hunter I definitely recommend the read. GBE's recap of 6 of his great dogs lives is well worth reading. His covert location description of the old farm homes, long lost to the owners, bring back great memories.

To say GBE was an experienced Grouse hunter who loved the sport of Grouse hunting would be a big understatement. His ethics are basically our Pa Grouse hunting tradition in word form, I will always be grateful to him for putting our traditional Pa mountain Grouse hunting life into words for sportsman all over the world to read and enjoy.

George believed that way too many Grouse hunters had influenced his chosen sport in a negative way, damaging the Grouse population. He may have had a point in the 50's, 60's and even part of the70's. It seemed every home along Rt 6 had a Ryman Setter Grouse dog on the front porch, and the dogs were used every week to Grouse hunt. In that era there were not all than many Deer or Turkey and the men Grouse hunted all the time.

Fast forward to modern times the number of Grouse hunters pretty much falls apart. We do have a problem with our Grouse population, and my Grouse hunting friends and I discuss them all the time. In reality over 3/4 of the Sportsman who hunted Grouse during GBE's life time, are now to old to hunt or have passed away. As Bill Palmer Pa's incredible Grouse biologist told the Pa Game Commission, there are so few Grouse hunters today, that hunting does not effect over all Grouse numbers.

GBE's graphs in the Affair with Grouse book is now pretty much outdated. However the Grouse population numbers continue to fall in most areas. No place in George's book does it address our flying predator problem, that occurred after President Carter signed some very foolish treaties, allowing the the flying predators protection. They devastated our USA small game populations, especially the Grouse population and continue to do so even today. I do wish GBE would have addressed the flying predator problem instead of the number of Grouse hunters that he was witnessing, he did agree with us about this big problem, however he never wrote about it. He did see a lot of Grouse hunters invading his Coverts, especially during the 50 thru the early 70's. Like many others he failed to address the real problem.

George Bird Evans father and my Grandfather lived in the same era and were friends. They hunted together from time to time on Chestnut Hill and other places. They were lucky enough to have hunted when Pa and Wva had incredible Grouse numbers, GBE hunted just as the Grouse population numbers started for fade, for a number of reasons.

My Grandfather's last Grouse hunt was in October of 1969 and he advised me that Grouse hunting as he knew it, especially as a boy were gone forever, he was in fact absolutely correct.

Our great Grouse population here in Pa was devastated not by the hunter, but by flying predators, especially the Great Horned Owls and poor forest management. A single pair of Great horned Owls can, and do wipe out many Grouse coverts, as they find and return to them every night until they are almost completely destroyed. No human hunter can have this effect on a Grouse population. With hunters not being able to shoot them, even our Potter County Grouse numbers fell sharply after the treaties. Add to that the other flying predators and it's a wonder we have any Grouse left in the forest here in Pa at all.

GBE had some great ethical ideas about hunting Grouse, learned form men like his Father and my Grandfather. Both men advised GBE the number of hunters was not the real problem, GBE however had his own ideas.

Many of us traditional Grouse hunters have some serious ideas on how to help rebuild our Grouse population here in Pa and Wva.

Proper forest management.

Changing laws to shrink Grouse season helps very little. 3/4 of our Grouse hunters are now gone.

Reverting to the use of traditional double guns would help a little, 2 shots only Grouse hunting.

Making ethics law would help a little, no ground swatting or tree shooting, no road hunting from a vehicle of any kind.

Adopting a GEMS program as Michigan has done would help greatly, here in Pa & WVa.

Elimination of the predator bird treaties would be the most help of all, to the small game population, especially the Grouse population. Putting predator birds on equal footing with other wild life would help greatly.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 401

Though I am no authority on predators, I agree with you. Talk to any of the old farmers and hunters and the consensus is that birds of prey have had a devastating effect on small game populations. Are they solely responsible? No. Farming practices, coyotes and development have all contributed. However, the number of hawks and other birds of prey have skyrocketed. I believe management of wildlife includes management of predators.
Unfortunately, there are no grouse within about 100 miles of me but I hope that with the arrival of 2 new bird dogs, I can experience grouse hunting in the near future. At this point in life, I find I am hunting more for the experience and traditions than for the harvest.

hayseed,

In reality almost every dedicated Grouse hunter believes as you do, we are in fact the most ethical of all hunters. It's not how many Grouse you take, it's how you take the Grouse.

For me especially the dog work, a good double gun and God's beautiful mountains are why I Grouse hunt. In my traditional Grouse hunting family, none of us have ever hunted Grouse & Woodcock with a semi-auto shotgun, let alone shot a Grouse from a tree or on the ground. We never take more than our limit, never hunt in a grave yard or shoot from a vehicle of any kind.

hope all is well in your neck of the woods,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 14 Feb 2017 Posts: 401

Thanks Dave, and I do have that book along with books by George Bird Evans, Burton Spiller and quite a few others. I do hope to get the young dogs on some grouse during their training. Guess we will be learning together.

While the spine of the Appalachians is a traditional raptor migration corridor and numbers of avian predators have indeed increased from the days when folks loved to kill such stuff simply because "that is just what one does"....their harm to ruffed grouse is overblown.
Overblown for reasons of greater black hats riding into town...not innocence.
It's easiest to hate the traditional villains tho as it is easiest to ignore the larger problems of ruffed grouse decline which are most difficult to truly address...those have been listed many times....and yes, in some areas of the range and at certain times of the year they include hunter additivity....everywhere, all the time?...no.
The bird is holding it's breath waiting for us to focus upon the true and greater issues of decline rather than the easy and political barbershop high-fives of the feckless fighting of international treaties.

Evans, an imperfect man, as are we all, was ahead of the ruffed grouse curve in the central Appalachians. Because he saw when he looked, thought rather than blindly reacted and did not choose the comfortable to address stabs at answers.
We could use more of that today for many critters, game and not.

We could also use more truth and less imagination when for posters building a message board cred.

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

There are interesting themes raised in this thread. I have read GBE extensively and have the "Affair with Grouse" book. I loved the illustrations and the obvious reverence the man had for the birds and dogs. I understand he was something of a curmudgeon--as I age I find myself in the same boat---and I reference Jim Fergus's book "A Hunter's Road" and his interview with GBE, wherein Jim sheds light on that side of GBE.

I never hunted in PA or WVa but, in the late 80's/early 90's, did some grouse hunting in the UP of MIchigan and in and around Northome, MN. At that time there were a few birds and we saw some success, particularly around Crystal Falls, MI. and in Minnesota. We ran into a number of road hunters; I remember one fellow expressed to me, from behind a steering wheel, indignantly on the gravel road we were crossing, that he "had to drive almost 70 miles that morning to shoot a grouse"!

I find the ruffed grouse to be, far and away, the most delicious gamebird I have personally ever tasted. GBE once quoted a scenario where the bird is to be served with a certain wine and trimmings, while listening to a Mahler symphony in the background. My very loving wife once prepared such a meal (including the symphony) and it was among the most memorable and enjoyable meals I've ever shared with another person. I'm sure the company helped make the meal...

I'd concede that avian predators take their toll, but I suspect that habitat loss and road hunting are also partly to blame. Back then, I killed a number of birds not only with an A5 Sweet 16, but also with a trim 28 gauge Remington 870 skeet gun. When I was on them, they never knew what hit them.
Cheers to all, and here's to a fine bird season !

Wolfchief,

Being regarded as a curmudgeon myself I was one of the few, along with Roger Brown who could disagree with GBE and still remain friends, we have our own opinions developed over many years of Grouse hunting experience that guides us.

Having Bill Palmer our long time Pa Grouse biologist agree with my opinions on Grouse hunting and forest management is all the credibility I will ever need. I do agree with a lot of GBE's opinions on Grouse hunting, not every one however. I respected him greatly and my friendship with Kay and George lasted from when I was a small boy until their passing. Our family friendship with George Ryman when I was a boy was just as important however.

Georges opinion on late winter hunting, and way too many hunters invading what he believed to be his coverts, I did not accept as fact, he knew this and we bickered the fine points often.

In reality George Ryman knew more about Grouse hunting and forest management than GBE, ever did. Ryman never wrote about the upland shooting life here in Pa as GBE did however. Ryman was busy running his very popular gun dog kennel business during that time. GBE even used George Ryman's incredible gun dog blood line to start his own Old Hemlock kennel.

This is not to bad mouth GBE, he saw what he wanted and went after it, this I highly respect. GBE had and still has a serious following among Grouse hunters, including myself. GBE wanted to restore the incredible beauty of the Ryman Setter dog, which he believed faded away with the modern FT dogs of his era. Eventually to save his Old Hemlock kennel GBE had to go back to the Ryman blood line to restore the Old Hemlock Setter hunting ability in his Old Hemlock kennel. It worked and his Old Hemlock Grouse dogs are still around today, under the ownership of Roger Brown.

The male Blue Belton Ryman dog that GBE purchased from George Ryman, is the father of Ruff, GBE's greatest Old Hemlock Grouse dog, and the dog GBE called the founder of the Old Hemlock breed line. Make no mistake about it both were incredible Ryman Grouse dogs. I am very grateful that GBE took a serious interest in the Ryman Setter line, his writing cemented the Ryman Grouse dogs place in history.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

There is nothing like the magic of a Ryman/Old Hemlock Grouse dog.

Dave,
Do you have any photo's of the potter county mountains in the 50's to 70's? Remember it was all early successional forest from the massive clearcutting that took place early in the 20th century. When you have massive amounts of cover and healthy populations of Grouse predators have very little effect. Fast forward sparse cover mature open woods and low grouse numbers. Now predation can have an impact. The only solution is more and better cover when the Grouse have that they can survive and thrive. Problem arises when you walk into a beautiful 100 acre cover and get fooled into believing it's enough. You have to look at the big picture and the thousands of acres surrounding it. In the 60's and 70's the covers all connected in some way and created corridors and mosaics of cover. Potter still has clearcuts but they are not continuous and connecting. So population get isolated and become very vulnerable. If the land use strategy accounts for 15 to 20% early successional forest it would greatly improve the outlook for Grouse. I personally manage my ground for 25% early successional forest with a goal of 33%.Early successional forest benefits most species in positive way and should be a mandatory component on state and federally managed forest. Predator populations ep and flow with prey species populations they are a symptom not really the true problem.

PP,

I do not have any pictures of Pa on my computer back in that era, however I probably have some, some place in my parents slide photos. I do remember what you are talking about however.

No doubt about it proper forest management is top of the list for a stable Grouse population worth hunting, I am still a member of RGS/AWS and mentor Grouse hunters each season.

In my younger years I believed as you do about flying predators, after having my own land in Potter/Tioga country, Pa all that changed. The actual problem was brought home right on my own land, when 2 sets of Great Horned Owls devastated the 6 Grouse coverts on my forest land, in one season. The land is managed for Grouse and Woodcock.

This wake up call proved to me what kind of massive problem flying predators really are, especially Great Horned Owls. Mine and my neighbors forest property are hooked directly to the Tioga State Forest and PGC land, no break any where.

Once the flying predators found the Grouse coverts, they came back every night and devastated them, until the Grouse coverts were almost completely destroyed. All my hard work providing great habitat for Grouse made absolutely no difference. I have lived thru the actual Grouse devastation here on my own land, and now the Grouse population is just starting to recover, I have a hunch the other land owners have taken care of our problem, so the squirrels and rabbits they love to hunt, have a chance to survive.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

Dave the only tool we have in our bag is habitat everything else is controlled by mother nature. If your habitat is good and connected to other good cover birds will disburse into your covers and the cycle will continue. Try creating some mouse and rat cover to feed your owls.

PP,

This is exactly what happened and the Grouse are now on the rebound, however it will be more than a few seasons before my 6 coverts return to any where near the Grouse population that was on our properties.

The flying predators are a major problem here in Pa and WVa, no matter how much great habitat is made, my property managed for Grouse and Woodcock is absolute proof of the problem. Elimination of these flying predator treaties, which no other country actually enforces, would be a big step in helping our Grouse population and our over all small game populations.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 753 Location: Mn.

OK I will play, and try to be nice.

Member Joined: 30 Nov 2011 Posts: 1696 Location: Minnesota

I've been hunting the same vast northern Minnesota state forest since the mid 70's. I understand the need to periodically cut patches of the forest that have matured. What I never have understood is the manner in which the clearcutting is allowed to be done. Trees that the loggers don't want are cut but left to lay where they fall making it impossible to walk thru. Maybe more importantly, no effort is made to replant pines and hardwoods which all critters need for protection from weather and predators and food. You end up with a area with nothing but popple you cant walk thru. Don't get it.

Impossible to walk thru is good provides more protection for the critters and the plants that grow when the sun hits the ground. Natures seed bed is in place the early successional species grow the quickest then are eventually shaded out by hardwood and conifer stands. That process can take a seriously long time. The reason for cutting it all is so you get complete sun and much better popple and forb regeneration. For the pulp wood industry and grouse the aspen is good fast growing so more tons per acre. Obviously the entire forest cannot be managed in this manner. In hardwood stands the prescription is usually different with smaller hardwoods left to fill out and seed. The forester determine what the best species is for the location and ground. I visited a project that was oak and hemlock the forester told me the small 12" and under oak was up to 60 years old and that the site would never produce oak and hemlock timber. He explained that early successional species would grow much better and make the site more suitable in the future for hardwoods. Now the forest and landscape changes may take 100's of years. Overall if we leave it to the foresters and biologists I think they would improve the landscape for the better. However now days that will not happen. I am not a forester and the info I gave is just how i understand it after overseeing a lot of chapter RGS projects and interacting with the professionals.

Cold Iron,

It sounds like you were growing up in the late 60's and 70's, by that time everything had changed greatly. From the 30's to the 60's Ryman Setters were all over Potter and Tioga and also in the Pittsburgh, Harrisburg and Phily areas, along with many other places across the USA.

My Great Grandfather worked for the Railroad and lived at 189 West Main St in Galeton, Pa. My Grandfather was a lawyer both lived very well. Most all their friends had Ryman Setter dogs, some had both Ryman and Gordon dogs, sold to them by George Ryman. I was born in my Great Grandfather's home in Galeton, Pa.
I am a Potter county kid. Just where were you born Cold Iron?

Only the people who could not afford double guns had M12 Winchesters, or Ithaca guns, nobody that I ever knew when I was a boy had a semi-auto unless they hunted Pheasant in Lancaster county. Now in the 70's it even changed more, lots of people had lost their jobs, many people could no longer afford expensive gun dogs or nice double guns, unless they were passed down to them.

The logging industry had slowed down and money was very tight in our mountain in that era. I was in the military during this time.

There were lots of Ryman Setter gun dogs along Rt 6 when I was a boy, in the early 50's many of my Grandfather's friends owned them, and hunted with us as I was growing up. My Grandfather owned a Great Ryman Setter Grouse dog named Maggie Mae. Even the people in WVa like Walt Lesser had Ryman Setter dogs back then, and most people in WVa had a lot less money than our people in Galeton, Pa had.

Your look at Potter County and mine are quite different, by the time you were entering the Military I was already out, simply different eras of growing up. Nobody ever accused a hunter of being a Communist because of the gun they could afford to use in my era.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Me & Pine Creek Ryman Daisy on a Grouse hunt.