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Matt, please take no offense at the preferences of one cranky old yankee. As for 90+ year old A5 shotguns, those were well made of excellent steel from the get go. Plus, they are a repeater with an inline lock up that contains the forces of shell ignition bewtwwen bolt and barrel quite well.

As far as old doubles, I'm refering to very old double guns made prior to WWI, especially those made in the days of black powder and for lower pressure ranges than what we commonly use today.

When it comes to O/U guns with alloy brech blocks, I'm looking at the matter with the eye of one who works in engineering, quality control, design qualification, etc. I spend my time testing the stress limits of road and bridge building materials by crushing them and tearing them apart, disecting them, etc.. In short, I break stuff for a living.

Hinge guns, by their very design are a weaker containment system than an inline, repeater type sytem. the forces exerted on a hinge gun tend to spring it apart by forcing thebarrel away from the breech face through the leverage these forces gain against a bottom oriented lock up system.

Like I said early on, its really a matter of personal preference. However, I do base mine on my training and professional background. I also said that for certain uses and under certain conditions, these alloy framed O/U designs will probably serve well, but not for me. For my use and under those conditions, I probably would pound them to pieces too soon. So I'll pass, thanks.

you have the right to shoot whatever you wish as long as you know you are doing it safely. I'd do the same.

As for a that word you've coined, I'll have to pass on that one too. Its too close to proctologist. That's a profession, I know nothing about, in spite of some vicious rumors to the contrary. Laughing

*Last edited by brdhnt on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total*

For the last 10 years or so, I have spent a week to ten days in Kansas/Nebraska in January hunting late season pheasants. These are birds that have been hunted since November and the weather conditions vary greatly. I've hunted in a foot of snow and on dry ground and also in forty degree weather and when the wind chill was in the minus double digits.

Into December, 90% of the time, I will have a load of nickel plated # 5's in the chamber. I used to load my own, but have had such good luck with Fiocchi Golden Pheasants (1 1/8th ounce at 1300 FPS) that I have gotten lazy and don't reload my # 5 loads any more.

For those last two weeks of the season birds though, I usually have the gun loaded with Nickel plated # 4's. It has been my experience that these fat, heavily feathered roosters need the bigger pellets for consistent kills. I have a load that I use in some ACTIV cases that pushes 1 1/4 ounce of nickel # 4's at 1250 FPS. This gives me a dense pattern similar to the 1 1/8th ounce of No. 5's.

I will also admit that often on those late, late season birds that I use a 12 gauge Embarassed

stoked with Fiocchi 1 3/8th ounce of Nickel # 4's at 1485 FPS.
Velocity and pellet count/density. I also usually switch from my Skeet/IC combo to Skeet II/IM in a double or an IM if a single barrel gun.

My Experiences

TMB
________
ROHYPNOL REHAB FORUMS

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

There are certainly different ideas about what one needs to kill pheasants. I took a friend out today, 160 acre farm that's been my most productive spot so far this season. Normally wouldn't have gone there today, because I shot 3 roosters off there just last Thursday, but I wanted to give him the opportunity to see a few birds (hopefully). We saw a total of 4, all roosters. First point by my shorthair, Dasher, produced a really nice double for my partner, who was shooting a Brit 16 (Watson) with something less than an ounce of Brit 6's. One hit the ground dead, the other had its head up when the dog brought it back to me, but both a wing and a leg were busted, so it would not have gone far. I got #3, didn't quite hold for a point, but the dog was working it so I had some warning. (I could have taken a double as well--mallard flushed a fraction of a second before the cock, but I wasn't shooting nontox and don't have a duck stamp.) So I pretended the rooster was a duck, and dropped him in the creek for the pooch to practice water retrieves. (40+ today, and the dog didn't mind.) He wasn't dead, but again was an easy retrieve with both legs and one wing busted. Last one was another point, pretty well raked him from stem to stern, not moving when the dog picked him up.

Sort of a strange hunt, because we saw no hens and didn't have a single wild flush. Which goes to show you--as did my hunt on the same place last Thursday--that late season birds aren't always spooky nor that tough, although they certainly can be. (The only cover on this place consists of a very nice waterway plus fencerows, everything else in picked corn. Given that fact, and the fact the place has been hunted several times, I've been very pleasantly surprised on my last two trips there to see that the birds aren't all that spooky.)

Guy, approximately how many pheasants do you shoot in a season, out there in Mass? I also get the impression that you might not hunt with a dog, which can make a difference when it comes to choice of choke and load. But the fact you seem to indicate you seldom get crossing shots . . . You'll love this story, because it involves your favorite, a Citori 16. A few years back, a friend and I had had a pretty much frustrating late season hunt, with birds about as spooky as they come--although he had one in the bag. It was about 3 in the afternoon, we'd been at it all day, and I hadn't even pulled the trigger. (I was beginning to think the Gods of the Hunt were jinxing me for carrying an OU with only one trigger!) When we reached the end of the last piece of cover we had to hunt, that left us with only a road ditch left to work back to the pickup. So my partner takes the far ditch, dogless, while my shorthair and I work the near ditch. He almost immediately has a rooster come up practically in his face; startled, he missed. My luck, I figure--even the ditch birds are on his side. About that time, Blitz goes on point. Rooster flushes from the ditch, takes a sharp left turn, gives me a perfect R to L crosser. Dead bird. In the next hundred yards, she repeats her performance twice more, and each succeeding rooster took the same flight path--out of the cover, left turn, nice R to L crosser. I was shooting IC in my open barrel, if I recall, and I could have been shooting skeet or Cyl for all the choke I needed on those birds. So if you've never seen crossers, you may need to talk to the Mass game people about the strain of bird they're releasing for you guys. The wild ones present crossing shots quite frequently, as anyone who hunts them much will confirm.

On the subject of pellet size, I have 6's available in my tighter L barrel. (The gun I've been shooting of late is a Brit 12 choked 005/025, or about skeet and IM.) And with 2 triggers, I can select that tighter choke and heavier load if the only shot I have is on the long side. Have killed several birds this year by doing just that--one of the advantages of a DT gun. I would not recommend 5's in anything less than a 1 1/8 oz load because of pattern density, and preferably 1 1/4. 4's, no less than 1 1/4--and personally, I have never used them. The late Jack O'Connor didn't think they were necessary on pheasants either. But he had a partner who shot 1 1/4 oz 4's, with great success--through an IC choke, no less. O'Connor patterned the gun, and said " . . . at 35 yards the patterns have holes that you could throw a cocker spaniel through." But in spite of what he saw on paper and his own dislike for 4's on pheasants, he said his friend shot extremely well, with few wounded birds, taking just about every opportunity out to 40 yards.

Personally, given the kind of shots I get the vast majority of the time, I'll stick with my Brit 6's (or 7's ) in a very open R barrel, heavier load of 6's in a much tighter L barrel. Like Maverick's pappy told him, you shouldn't quit a winner.

The late Don Zutz once did a study on the ratio of dead to wounded pheasant and shot sizes starting with 7-1/2 shot and going to #4 shot. all the shot used was extra hard magnum type. The various velocities of the loads range between 1250 fps to 1325 fps, close enough to what can be got in a 16 not to matter much. This study was done at several Midwest commercial pheasant hunting lodges or preserves. The only birds counted were fully grown, well feathered adult cock birds.

The findings were 7-1/2 shot gave far too many cripples to use it. # 6 shot was fine inside of 30 yards with about an 8o% clean kill rate on well centered birds. Fringed birds always needed a finisher, and those shot from the rear, almost always out past 25 yards. #5 shot almost always killed any bird wacked inside of 35 yards from any angle if centered. Fringed birds needed a second shot about 60% of the time and those fringed from the rear, nearly always so. #4 shot dropped them with 100% certainty out to about 45 yards from any angle if centered. Fringed birds hit from the rear often folded up inside 35 yards if a couple of pellets made it to the vitals. Also, it was noticed that #4 shot had a shock effect on pheasants no other pellet seemed to exhibit. The pellets hit hard enough to disrupt the birds' nervous systems much more effectively than any other smaller pellet size.

This study convinced me to try #4 shot against the advice of nearly every local hunter I talked to. Most of these guys swore on # 7-1/2 to #6 shot and nothing bigger. However, I'd hunted with several of them over dogs and we spent way too much time and energy looking for cripples. Many of these guys would look for about 5 minutes, call it a miss, and move on. I'd see evidence of a hit and would stay and search. I often found the bird, and finished it with a neck snap or if it got up, a second round. I hate leaving wounded birds behind.

I also stopped hunting with a fair number of these "sports". I also refused to use 7-1/2 shot regardless of how much ribbing I took. the stuff just plain sucked for pheasant unless you hit it in the head and neck, or inside of 20 yards. Some of these old skeet shooters were lightning with a gun and excellent shots. They often hit birds inside 20 yards, but those birds that ran a bit and got up outside 15 or 20 yards were all too often wounded and left unfound for dead in the cover. If the bird did not fall, but sailed off, they'd assume a miss. Feathers in the air or a dropped leg told me differently.

Today, I just keep loading those #4 pellets whenever I feel they are needed. I don't discuss the matter with the local guys. Why bother. They are convinced they are doing ok. I know better. I go my own way and don't need to chase many birds. I also had a nickname among folks who hunted with me regularly out of my old crowd-- "Charlie One Shot." The guy who hung it on me was the same guy who gave me my Hiedi dog. It was a back handed compliment, from a very good, now departed friend. I took it as an honor. My secret was bigger pellets when things got to be less than ideal.

Member Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 128 Location: NE

Having hunted wild birds here in Nebraska for over 35 years, I've seen quite a few killed. My choice is 5 shot for most of my hunting. I will use 6's early in the season, or if weather conditions are such that the birds are holding. I wouldn't even consider any smaller shot size unless it was absolutely the only thing I had. With any larger I feel that you are giving up pattern density esp. at the longer ranges that are the excuse often given for going to larger shot-more energy needed.

berg

Didn't catch whether you were handloading or shooting factory loads. Plated shot is more leathal than hard lead, so start there. Then for the 16 keep your shot size either 5's or 6's. 1 1/8 oz. at 1325fps makes the feathers fly and the birds fold Twisted Evil

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

A few more comments here:

I think it was ballistics expert Tom Roster who pointed out that all "plated" shot is not equal. Sometimes the plating is simply "washed" on, so you get pretty shot which may in fact be softer than hard, nonplated shot. Good plated shot is out there, but you have to do some looking--and you want to look at the antimony content (which is the best indicator of how hard the shot is, without doing a "crush" test) to evaluate hardness. For example, Winchester used to use a very good copper plating process in their XX Mag loads, but more recently they've gone to a cheaper and less effective process.

Guy, all I've got to say is you hang around with some strange dudes. If a pheasant is on the ground as a result of a shot, it ain't a miss. That'd be an impossibility, unless one assumes the pheasant ran into something while flying, or simply decided to land on his own. So someone would have to be a total idiot to knock down a bird, look for 5 minutes, and call it a "miss". They might call it a runner and wish they had a better dog, or that they'd hit the bird better, but it sure as heck wasn't a miss. Maybe it's the water out there in Mass, or those two senators you've got down in DC . . . Smile

I've kept very careful records on unrecovered birds over the past 30 years. Hunter surveys conducted by the Iowa DNR indicated that guys with dogs lose, on average, about 1 bird in 10 they knock down. Like Guy, I hate losing cripples, and to me, such a loss rate is unacceptable--but when you're hunting pheasants, you probably will lose an occasional bird. With my dogs, my loss rate tends to run about 1 in 25 or so, and talking with other experienced pheasant hunters, I think that's pretty good. If you shoot at least a couple hundred pheasants over a dog and the two of you do better than that, I'd say you're right at the top of the heap as far as recovery of downed birds goes. This year, with over 60 roosters in the bag at this point, I've had only one that kept on flying after being hit. Had one first time ever experience, when a cripple crawled into a hole too small for the dog to dig him out. But the vast majority of the other birds I've knocked down have been pretty much like yesterday's hunt that I reported above--easy job for the dogs.

Zutz, by the way, was a fan of large shot and tight chokes for pheasants because unless he hunted with someone else who had a dog, he hunted them dogless. And with pheasants, if you don't have a dog, you don't want them running at all. Period.

all my hunting loads are handloads developed and tweaked over the years. I will not post the recipes. These are lethal loads that are quite safe in a gun as stout as a Citori or a good pump gun, but not for the more delicate older doubles. Plus, I weigh every powder charge and shot drop to make sure I'm not pushing the limits by accident.

For my 16 ga gun, I use a 1 ounce load of hard #6 shot at 1300 FPS. I use a 1-1/8 ounce load of hard #5 at about 1290 FPS and a 1-1/4 ounce load of the same at 1270 FPS. For my #4 loads, its a very similar load of 1-1/4 ounces of hard shot, but the velocity is backed off to about 1250 with a lower pressure curve. This load patterns supurbly out of an Invector full tube I had reamed to .024" or points of choke which is about an improved modiefied choke.

I've found the #4 shot does not need as much choke as #6 or even #5 shot to hold a very good pattern all the way out to 40 yards and maybe a bit more. I think this is because of the way the big pellets flow through a 16 ga barrel. I think too much choke on bigger pellets in a smaller bore causes bridging and pattern disruption. I've seen the same phenomenon with #6 shot in a 28 ga. About a nice Improved modified choke woorks qiute well with this combo too. Anyway, for whatever reason, this is what works for me.

I used to hunt pheasant with a 28 ga gun a while back now. I developed a 7/8 ounce load of #7 that killed early season birds close in fairly well. However, I found this load to be much better for grouse. I also developed a 1 ounce magnum load of #6 shot for the little gauge that was far better on phesant out to 35 yards. I've even killed a couple at 40 yards with this load, but would not recommend the practice as a mtter of course. Its also a late season grouse crusher out of a 28.

Since that time, I've adopted the 16 ga as my go to pheasant gun except on rare occasions when I'm certain all the shots we will get are going to be very close ones, because of the cover we will be hunting in like a wooded area full of scrub oak mixed with pine and hardwood trees. We see a lot of this down on Cape Cod, where the birds are stocked. Even there, as trhe season wears on, the 16 gets the nod as the foliage thins out and the ranges get longer.

On those occasions I'm hunting grouse in an area where I've put up a pheasant, I've hit them with a 7/8 ounce load of #7 pigeon shot out of my 28 ga.. It depends on how they are hit, and how close in. Most times this is in very heavy cover for pheasant and not typical. I'm sure most of these cagey older birds run from the dog, so we never see them, but once in a while one gets up fairly close and is well hit inside of 20 yards. At these tight ranges, a fast load of #7 shot will do the job, but not nearly as cleanly as #6. However, I rarely need barrel #2 on these shots, so the 28 ga, 1 ounce magnum load of #6 is not usually needed. In a couple of rare cases over the years, I've used it and dumped a retreating bird hard enough for the dog to recover it easily enough. I would not recommend #7 shot for roosters as a go to load. Its just a matter of convenience when I do.

On a good year, I've probably killed over 50 birds. I've had a couple of 70-80 bird years if we were hunting pay to shoot perserves frequently enough. So I can say I've probably killed quite a few over the years. And as for dogs, this is the first year I've been without my Hiedi. It is not fun.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Another comment on ballistics and pheasants . . . Tom Roster did a fairly extensive study on steel shot and pheasants, taking careful readings on ranges at which 300+ birds were shot, and comparing 1 oz loads of 2, 4, and 6 steel--not because those are the best choices for pheasants, but because Roster assumed that most hunters are cheapskates and that's what they tend to use. (And where nontox is concerned in particular, he's probably right.)

The results of his field tests showed that pheasants hit inside 30 yards, regardless of what they were hit with, are almost never lost. I'm no fan of 7 1/2's myself (you end up with too many pellets in the bird), but a lead 7 1/2 and a steel 6 are basically ballistic twins. Steel 6, MV 1500 fps, retains 1.69 ft-lbs of energy at 30 yards; lead 7 1/2, MV 1330 fps, has 1.66 ft-lbs. And of course, if you shoot a more typical pheasant load of 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz lead shot, you have a lot more 7 1/2's than you do steel 6's: 315 of the latter, 395-440 of the former. As long as you don't take anything longer than 30 yard shots, 7 1/2's will do fine--if you don't mind picking a lot of pellets!

Guy, question on those Mass pheasants you shoot . . . when I access the Mass game laws, I come up with a season limit of 6 pheasants. If you're shooting 60, then I take it you're either shooting them somewhere besides Mass, or you're shooting a heck of a lot of preserve birds in addition to state-released and/or wild birds.

I also hunt R.I. and yes, we hunt perserve birds. As for Mass game laws, I have to say they can be convoluted, archaic, and arbitrary, because they are created and passed by folks who do not know how and do not listen to our Wildlife management personell.

We can't hunt on Sunday, but can on certain politically favored private preserves for the wealthy and our local sports celebrities. Grouse season ends the Saturday after Thanksgiving like pheasant season does. This pretty much ends the need for WM officers to be out and about, which saves the state a lot of money, but has no real basis other than that. We never see them out after shotgun dear season ends in mid December.
Dear seasons have been bandied about as the legislature has come to realize theres a buck to be made by selling more doe permits than is healty for the herd. And there is an extra stamp fee on nearly everything. Plus, we pay an extra land acquisition tax which is supposed to be used to acquire more huntable land for our WMA program. It is never used and every few years, the legislature appropriates much of it into the general fund.

Mass game laws have been set up for the convenience of the authorities and for fiscal reasons. The game and the sportsmen are always dead last in the process. I'm not advocating flaunting the law. But laws are supposed to serve the people and not the authorities and their friends. So they pretend to care about us, and we return the favor. Nuff said here.

Please don't make an issue of it Larry. you don't suffer under the system we do. The MA legislature pretty much ignores its constituency except for the rich, the powerful, and the connected. Joe average is just a source of revenue for these leeches.

Guest

I don't want to speak for Larry Brown but I believe the only point he was making was that what works for preserve pheasants may not work for wild birds. The only thing those two have in common is they look alike but the preserve birds can be twice as large due to their previous "comfortable" living conditions. The moment a wild bird is hatched, it goes through 24 hours 365 days of being eaten by everything on two and four legs along with things that fly. I do chuckle when someone puts a post on this BB on how their "special load" anchored some bird who spent breakfast in a caged environment and had only been out of their cage for less than an hour before someone shoots him. Preserve birds provide a service to people that don't have the access or time to get into wild birds but they are not even close to same realm in chasing them. Wild pheasants are the test of your dog and their ability to fetch the cripples. Wild pheasants fly faster, don't hold a point like a preserve bird and hard as hell to find if you only break a wing. A wild bird could unrun most dogs in a foot race, a preserve bird can only make it off the couch to get the remote control....

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Terry, I believe you might be making an unfounded assumption. Trust me, I know the difference between a preserve bird, a state stocked, pen raised, 7 month old pheasant, and a wild one. I worked for the state for a few summers as a young man at the now closed Sandwich, MA F&W game farm on Cape Cod under a fellow named John Prouty. Now there is an old Yankee name. Wink

Work a few summers raising these birds and you'll get to know them fairly well.

Pheasent are born wiley with tremendously effective survival instincts built right in. It used to amaze me to see every young bird in on the farm flatten out and freeze as one. We'd look up searching the skies for the hawk they were hiding from. Invariably, we'd spot this tiny speck circling way up almost out of sight. These young birds miss nothing. Evading humans and dogs is child's play for them. Its a wonder we harvest as many as we do. I do know the harvest percentage for most of the state stocked birds is about 15% tops. The rest are taken by owls, hawks, weasels, fox, coyotes, desease, and starvation, except for the luckiest, the smartest, and the toughest.

Some of the toughest roosters I've ever encountered anywhere are those old holdouts who have found their way to any of the swamps, river bottoms, fens, salt marshes, and abandoned cranberry bogs that cover South Eastern MA. and RI. These birds live and breed in an evironment perfect for survival, so hens make it too. Those places are tough to gain access to and tough to hunt. The birds are tough as a pine knot, cagey as any midwest survivor, smarter than most dogs can cope with, and nearly unwilling to fly unless cornered. I've killed some with amazingly long tails and spurs, birds probably into their fourth year. That is an old bird anywhere.

These birds, and my willingness to hunt them when most others saner than I had cleaned and stored their guns for the year is probably why my old Hiedi dog was as good on birds as she was. Birds make the dog. Smart, tough ones bring out the best in any good dog if they are matched against each other. So I guess you could say Hiedi went to pheasant hunting college and grad school because her master is a little crazy. Laughing

Believe me, we have our native birds. I'll match these characters against any pheasant anywhere. Shot too small seems to bounce off them, especially at the times we can best hunt them when things freeze over enough that we can penetrate where they live. Cold dense air slows any round shot down. Cold ammo has less poop too. And cold hunters bundled against it also sometimes swing and shoot a little slower. Tis then a #4 pellet works its magic best. I'll stick to what I know works for me under the conditions I find myself in. Thanks.

Guest

A wild pheasant has the genetic makeup to survive from its previous generations. For a bird to reach its maturity, it cannot make one mistake to that point. Granted a pen raised pheasant that has been left outside for a month or so is more cagey than it recently released cousin but its genetic makeup is based upon its ability to be reared in a caged environment rather than overall survival skills. Find someone on this BB who has chased wild birds 1-2 months into the season under constant pressure and have them compare it with preserve birds that have been released for just a few weeks....you will find no comparison between the survival skills between the two. Try a wild bird hunt (where they don't release preserve birds to add to the population) and it'll probably open up your eyes.....

Well Terry, its obvious you posted while I was editing and further expanding on my background a bit. I trust you realize my eyes are fairly well opened and have been for some time when it comes to pheasant. These birds have been a part of my life since I saw my first one perched on top of our gargage my first year as a skinny little youngster in the town we moved to from Boston and where I grew up and finally returned to many years later.

The State used to stock birds everywhere in South East MA. They always put a few boxes out in the old farm field right next to my house. We'd see them at the edge of our yard strutting as only they can in the mornings and evenings throughout the year. I killed my first one with a bow at age ten. I was not allowed to have a gun like some of the youngsters in my neighborhood. My dad was a DAV and a vet who served in some of the bitterest fighting in the far Pacific theater He hated guns. So I improvised and became quite good with the only weapon I could have. That was long ago, but shooting that old bow probably prepped me for wingshooting. The two are quite similar if done the instinctive way, that is depending on hand eye coodination rather than bow sights and release aids as done today.

So I quess you could say I've been hunting these birds all my life. They run through the fabric that is my history to emerge, and disappear, only to reemerge. Now, in my autumn years, I realize I've taken probably more than my share. I love being out in the fields and fens. Hunting is second nature to me now. But killing is not near as important as it used to be. However, my desire to be independent and self sufficient will probably burn strong as long as the lght in my wide open eyes shines. And my admiration and love for these wonderful birds will go on too. Eyes open--you better believe it.