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Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

Ok, got a question for you guys. I went with 3 buddies to a semi private commercial preserve Tues. A bit high end, they give you the ammo to shoot, you get cleaned birds when you are done, yada yada yada.

Two of us were shooting 16's. Last year this place gave you RST 6's or 7.5's in 2.5" shells. While I prefer the 6's over the 7.5's, they both worked quite well.
This year the ammo of choice is Gamebore Traditional in 2.5" 7's. I noticed a few things while shooting a number of pheasants Tues.
First, the GB are dirty. Even the guys shooting the 12ga. stuff found the ammo filthy.
Second, I was getting cripples (which The Girls) quickly dispatched I might add, and birds just keep on going.

I just felt that the quality was not as good as the RST ammo we used there last season.

Anybody have any opinions, findings, similar situations using the Gamebore ammo?

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Filthy bores do not mean crippled birds---Unique,Blue Dot,etc.----Usually pen raised birds are no secret to hit and the mabey were using light loads in cold weather?????????I am no fan of the pen raised hunts for several reasons--this is but one Evil or Very Mad

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

I didn't mean that the dirty bores caused the crippled birds. It was just one more thing I didn't like about the Gamebore vs the RST loads.

But I do believe that knowing my shooting ability and how many birds I don't miss, and the results the other day with this ammo, that there is something not as good with the shot pattern. Wad, lead content in the shot, I don't know. They just don't shoot as well.

These birds while pen raised, a lot of them have been on the ground for close to 3 months and have adapted very well to acting like wild birds. They may be a bit smaller but they run and hide just like the real deal and fly pretty darn well too.

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 317

Gamebore is Kent's british operations. Those #7s are English #7s, hence smaller in diameter than our #7s. Closer to a number 8 american. Might have something to do with your cripples. English #5s or #6s are a better choice.

As to the powder burn, I suspect Gamebore is using medium to slow burn rate single based powders. Much akin to our Unique, IMR SR-7625 and Solo 1250. I wouldn't let the residue bother you. If doesn't affect velocity, no matter what the marketers claim.

RST #7s and #6s are high quality shells. So are Kent's Upland DS loads. And B&P F2s. No doubt a #5 Gamebore would have been a good shell as well. Russ

Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 26 Location: Finland

The one "PC" thing we probably all agree on is, one should pattern new ammo before shooting anything live. Funny that these places don't have a patterning board, so people could have a quick check before the hunt.

What you said about the English sizes being smaller than what we are used to is true. Look at the Eley website. They post both the English size and the comparable US size.
I have measured the #7's from B&P and they really are #7's. Maybe the Italians are on the same size system as we are. They are extremely effective on Chuckars by the way. I have pulled off some long shots with them. I have not tried them on Pheasants though but I feel sure they will do the job within reasonable ranges. I'm really sold on them.

I've used RST 16 ga 2 1/2" shells almost exclusively this season in my 16 ga Webley & Scott. Alex & Morris even gave me some of their prototype PAPER hull cartridges to try.

They patterned beautifully and were perfect grouse and woodcock medicine in the #7 1/2 & #8 loads.

I also bought some of their #5 loads and they were good on preserve and wild pheasants so far. (Just have to "experiment" some more before the seasons close both here and in ND).

I did use some other sample #5 Bismuth shot from them. I used it on federal land (WPA) pheasants and again, worked great.

Sounds a bit boring, but the stuff was fine quality, clean burning and hit well. Can't wait to see when the paper hulls are available for next season.

Good luck.

Mike

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

The smaller shot size as compared to the US is something I hadn't thought about. But it did most likely contribute to some of the crippling problems.
As far as patterning, I agree it would be nice. But they give you the ammo and I never had a problem with the RST ammo.

They also claim having a fiber wad. Would that have anything to do with maybe allowing a more open pattern overall?
I reload a lot of pistol and rifle but I'm not up to speed on the shotgun stuff. I am assuming the fiber wad is different from the plastic wads used in the American ammo??

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 62

Permit me to make a few comments and/or observations on this topic of American vs British shotgun loads.
It has been my experience that our English cousins prefer light & fast loads. Say in 12 gauge, a 7/8 or 1 oz load going about 1300 fps or more.
RST (and Polywad) tend to the same shot weights but tone down the velocity to between say 1135 and 1200 fps. Without getting into a debate on the merits of high or low velocity, it is a fact that when you increase velocity you also increase recoil. Michael McIntosh, one of America's most gifted gun writers, favors light loads (as I do) and I would urge all readers here to pick up a copy of his books SHOTGUNS & SHOOTING and MORE SHOTGUNS & SHOOTING where he discusses this subject in convincing detail.

RST has always prided itself on clean burning powers. If my memory serves me right, American shotgun shell manufactures use "double base" powders while "single base" powders are more common in England stemming in part from tradition I believe. Unless I have twisted this powder thing around, I think single base propellants tend to be less clean burning and leave more barrel residue. Again, myself, I would prefer the RST type of approach. There is more to this powder question than I have time to go into here but both types can produce good loads.

Shot size is something that Great Britain and America also have their own system on.
For the most common upland shot sizes this is the breakdown:
US #7 = GB #6 (note the US #7 is an old pigeon load that is seldom encountered nowdays althought I think it superior to the 7.5 in some upland shooting situations.)

US #7.5 = GB #7
US #8 = GB #7.5
US #9 = GB #9 (We both agree on this.)
US #6 = GB #5 (pheasant hunters take note! #5 is not used much in the United Kingdom that I can detect.)

Finally, the question of fiber (fibre is the English spelling) wad vs plastic.
In terms of efficiency, having a plastic wad or skirt holds the shot charge together better for about 10% tighter patterns and range. Also, since the plastic wad column protects the shot from being rubbed out of round by the sides of a barrel, more shot holds it shape and flies true. Plastic wads came into American production around 1962 (give or take a year). Britain uses plastic in many of their loads but still produces more paper hulled shells with fiber wads than we do. Why? Paper hulls and fiber wads tend to "open up" more quickly than the plastic variety and in Britain they shoot more often at game flying into the gun whereas we Americans shoot at upland game going away from the shooter as a rule. (Also, according to many target shooters I have spoken with, Federal's paper loads tend to have less recoil as the same load in plastic, so this could also be a reason why paper is still around in the UK -- that, plus tradition old boy.)

I personally think for American pheasant hunters, #6 shot in early and mid season is good, and a switch to #5 for late season, heavily feathered, smart birds is effective. I am not a fan of 7 1/2 shot unless one is on a perserve, with good dogs, and close in shots. In Great Britain, where the driven pheasants are flying into the guns with their breasts and necks vulnerable and open to the shooters, then 7 1/2 can be deadly on ringnecks (as it can on some passing shots where the lungs are vulnerable too). Our #6 shot covers all the bases, especially for going away shots where one needs to have the heavier shot to go up into the body vitals and also break bones to bring more distant birds down. In this latter case, I would much rather have #7 (GB #6) than #7 1/2 shot if I had to make that choice.

Best regards to all,
Keith

Member Joined: 16 Aug 2004 Posts: 317

Keith:

Concerning published velocity on American verses English and European shells. Not all velocities are measured equally. Here again the Americans use a slightly different system. Muzzle velocity as published by American makers is measured at 3' in front of the muzzle. While English and European makers measure muzzle velocity at the true muzzle. Shotshells shed velocity fast. Even at 3' from the muzzle a shell will register a lower velocity than it does at the muzzle. So those 1300 fps european shells are very similar in velocity to our 1200-1250 fps loads. Someone more knowledgable than me in shotshell ballistics can give you better figures, but this difference in measurement should not be forgotten. Not all published velocities are equal. Russ

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

Not to get too far off subject, but I find Fiocchi Game Loads don't burn cleanly either.

Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 26 Location: Finland

Shells with fiber wads are often preferred in Europe for older shotguns with fixed chokes, and particularly for fixed full chokes. With plastic wads these guns tend to pattern too tight.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

All very interesting.

All I know is the Gamebore ammo we were given was dirty and didn't do the job on the birds that the RST ammo did. For that matter it couldn't keep up with Remington Game Loads in #6 either. I didn't expect it to compare to the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant #5's. That ammo just plain rocks.

This ammo (GB) was bright blue plastic cases and boxes were marked something to the effect of having a fiber wad.
I'll not use it next time there. I'll use my own if for no other reason, it's the right thing to do for the birds. I hate that many cripples.

Interesting and very much appreciate the comments by RWG and kb.
The RSTs run 1145 with 7600 psi
The Gamebore 1 oz load per http://www.firearmservice.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page19.html
are 1260 fps and 8122 psi-right at my limit for my LC but a bit more 'thump' for pheasants.
I bought some Gamebore 6s (US 7s) for Dr 16g and wanted to use them in Russell where we expected to get into both quail and pheasant in the same field. They did have more recoil than the Federal Game Shok 1 oz I've been using for preserve chukar but hammered the big KS pheasants-all taken within 25 yrs or so.
I very much suspect TJCs bad experience was from the smaller shot size. Although I move up to my 12g Sterly with 1 1/8 5s R and 4s L in S. Dakota, I was impressed with the Gamebore loads and will use them again behind my pointing dog.

TJC, what surprises me is the fact that a supposedly high end operation could make such a fundamental error in ammo selection for its clients. someone did not do his homework.

KB, nice obervations on the different shot presentations between driven birds and flushed ones. I have used #7 pigeon shot on early season stocked birds with great success until the average ranges lengthen to past 25 yards. However, I've pretty much stopped using it on pheasant altogether because its effectiveness drops off very quickly and now prefer #6 shot as minimum even for close in birds.

#5 shot hits hard enough to kill 90% of any type of pheasant from stocked birds to wild ones out to 40 yards. However, once the temperatures plummet to below 20 degrees, the wind is wailing, and the smart old cock birds are flushing wild and riding it quickly out of range, I will sometimes load #4 shot for those tail first going away shots at 35 yards and beyond to make sure the pellets reach the vitals and snap wings and legs. It is during those trying days when birds come hard that I especially hate to see a hard found bird drop a leg on the shot only to sail off to parts unknown to die unrecovered. #4 shot just seems to drop them better so this doesn't happen.

So in short, I guess the wisest thing is use a big enough pellet, to do the job however the bird is presented, and at the longest ranges we expect to shoot them under the conditions we find ourselves in. #6 through #4 does the job just fine on pheasant if used wisely.