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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:32 am  Reply with quote
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Location: massachusetts

As some of you know, I'm in the market for another used 28" 16 ga Lightning. I received a tip from on of our fellow 16 ga site members last month about a used 16 ga Citori at Griffin and Howe. They were asking $1500 for a 1987 standard grade 28" Citori at their Connecticut shop. I contacted their in-store G&H partner, Steve Torburg, and tried to negotiate a more equitable price for the gun. I explained that a new 16 Citori could be had for 1400 to 1450 quite easily on the Net and at Kittery Trading Post locally. Mr Torburg agreed that the asking price on their used gun seemed unreasonable considering the new gun price range. He stated that perhaps one of his subordinates allowed too much in trade on it and said he'd look into the matter. He asked for my phone number to contact me.

After waiting over a week, I finally called him back. He said he'd been very busy and had not fully researched the matter. He then asked for $1350 plus shipping. I countered with logic and stated that he was asking 93%+ of a new gun on a 17-18 year old one with a modified stock, which would put the overall condition at about 95% at best. I also argued that the gun is not now and will not be a classic gun or a collectable for some time, nor is it a high grade model, but a basic used hunting model. I countered with an offer of 75% of new as my very best offer. It seemed a good one to me and very, very fair to G&H. He seemed agreeable and stated he'd once again try to contact the original source in G&H, and let me know what he could do for me. I waited almost 2 weeks and finally called him again. At that point he told me he would not take less than 1350 and we could not deal.

Its hard enough for me to comprehend the arrogance and indifference I sometimes encounter when shopping for a gun on the private market. But to get "the treatment" from a firm like G&H is doubly hard to understand. They are normally a high end firm with a reputation for fair dealing to protect. It would seem to be in their best interest to deal equitably at the low end as well as the high end. But I guess that they think anything they sell is high end stuff.

It's their right to do so, and my right to rip them for it. I would now rather stick pins in my eyes than deal with snobby jerks like that. I guess "green backed sucker fishing" is their specialty. Perhaps they should change their name to Griffin, Dewey, Cheatem, & Howe-- their motto "If you've been screwed elsewhere, let us help."
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:48 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Sorry to hear that-the good news is you get to keep your money and keep looking. If you don't now, consider looking through the "Gun List", which has a substantial Browning section.
Good Luck,
Ted
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TJC
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:05 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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Location: NH

16gaguy,

I sent that tip to you and I'm sorry you met so many negative attitudes. They've had that gun for quite a while and by the sounds of it, they'll have it for a lot longer.

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A bad day of hunting is better than a good day of work.
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Geech
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:49 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Deep south

16gaguy, look on Upland Journal Swap and Trade Guns for Sale and i believe you will find one for $1295. Geech
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:40 am  Reply with quote
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TJC, Yes you did, and I am grateful. Neither of us had any idea of what type of folks make up G&H. Perhaps the fellow I dealt with was having a hard time, or maybe he is just a jerk. Who knows. Anyway I appreciate any and all leads you folks can provide. Thank you Geech for the tip.

I am hoping to find a pre-1994 long tang model because my other guns are such, plus, those are the most common models. New in box guns for sale by private parties are essentially preowned, used guns they either do not want or they are looking to cash in on the "Citori Panic" that has occured in the last few monthes, or both. these private sellers cannot back up the gun they sell, because they are not registered Browning dealers. It is buyer beware. therefore, I will not pay a new or close to new gun price for their wares.

I am taking a risk buying used. As a wise buyer, I must allow for this. I also know that no professional gun dealer would offer more than 50-55% of list price for any preowned gun, regardless of condition, unless it is a very rare or hard to find gun. 16 ga Citoris are not at this time and won't be for many years. I feel that 70% of the going price for new is more than fair to a private seller. Darned few standard model guns are sold for more. If they don't agree, then they don't have to sell. I will look elsewhere until I find a seller with a more realistic view of things.

I have found most private sellers generally to be somewhat unrealistic in their pricing and they have been very unwilling to negotiate. However, I've also noticed that since the panic is ebbing, the prices for used 16 Citori models are dropping fast and the owners are getting more flexible. I will follow up all the leads you guys can send me and will buy for the fair and right price. Thanks.
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:32 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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Location: Chattanooga, TN

16gaguy,

This isn't the gun you have in mind, but I thought I'd direct you to www.doublesguns.com. This Herschel Caddick's website. On it he lists a 16 ga Citori Upland with Invectors for $1250.

Paul
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:33 am  Reply with quote
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Location: massachusetts

Thanks Paul, I'll check out the site. You are right about the gun, it's barrels are too short for my shooting style. However, if you, or anyone else hear of a 28" superlight (same gun with longer barrels) that would also work for me. Thanks again and keep those tips and leads coming guys.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:58 am  Reply with quote
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Well, all's well that ends well. Especially if I don't end up on my end. Anyway, I finally got the pre-'94 Browning Citori 28" barrelled 16 ga I've been hankering after. SHe's a beauty-- a 1987 in a true 98-99%. My old friends from Kittery Trading Post came through for me and at substantially less than Griffin, Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe. Boy I really like those guys at Kittery.

She came in the original box with everything including the hang tags and the nice old type choke wrench with the handle instead of that barrel gouging flat one wrench fits all piece-o-crap Browning foists off on us now. She looks unfired, almost too good to hunt with....almost! She's got a nice looking stock a shade darker than my favorite piece with a pleasing grain and a little bit of figure, not too bad for a grade one gun. I've seen better, but I've seen a lot more not as nice. She hangs just like my 1988 models. I'll let you know how she shoots. Skeet range here I come. Yippee!!!
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:04 am  Reply with quote
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Sometimes my personal devil gets the better of me. Last night, I was reviewing the email I sent last month to the president of Griffin, Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe. It was the one in which I offered him $1100 plus shipping for the 1987 90% 16 Ga Citori they have posted on their web site, the one he did not respond to. I was going to delete it from my file. Then something came over me--call it a severe case of "smart ass". Anyway, I reposted it to him and included an addendum. I told him I got a much nicer as new in box 1987 gun from Kittery Trading post for less money. I also thanked him for not responding to my email because if he had not ignored me, then I might have been stuck with his company's offering. Further, I told him that I was looking forward to not doing business with him again. Sometimes I just don't know what comes over me.
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JCMorella
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:09 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 25
Location: Somerset County, NJ

Hey 16,

I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with G&H. I live about 5 minutes from their NJ store. Other than being inordinately slow with repair stuff, I can honestly say that I've never had a bad experience with them over the past 5-6 years. Yes, they cater to the high-end clientel here in Somerset County, NJ. Yes, some of their stock is terribly overpriced. However, I have also made some really great buys from them, too. How would you like a shot at a Pointer Grade Superposed Lightning for $4600? I did and bought it before it ever hit the Internet site. It is often just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. No one deserves to be ignored in the course of attempting to do business, but by the same token ragging a businessman because he's "sticking to his guns" (sic) is not exactly classy either. Two wrongs don't make right.
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8+8
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 23

16gaugeguy,

Do you think they care? Just wondering..........
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TJC
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:19 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 20 Mar 2005
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I've been in the store in B'ville a few times. People are usually too busy to talk to you or even pay attention to you.

I sent an email to their site in regards to an old Winchester I was thinking of selling. Followed it up with a second email after the first went unanswered. Never heard in regards to either one.

Unless you go there with tweed on and loafers, driving a Range Rover or Porsche, they could care less.

Those are my experiences with them.

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:15 am  Reply with quote
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JCMorella wrote:
Hey 16,

I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with G&H. I live about 5 minutes from their NJ store. Other than being inordinately slow with repair stuff, I can honestly say that I've never had a bad experience with them over the past 5-6 years. Yes, they cater to the high-end clientel here in Somerset County, NJ. Yes, some of their stock is terribly overpriced. However, I have also made some really great buys from them, too. How would you like a shot at a Pointer Grade Superposed Lightning for $4600? I did and bought it before it ever hit the Internet site. It is often just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. No one deserves to be ignored in the course of attempting to do business, but by the same token ragging a businessman because he's "sticking to his guns" (sic) is not exactly classy either. Two wrongs don't make right.


Jc, I don't have a problem with folks that stick to their asking price. If the price is a poor one,and not negotiable, then I thank them for their time and move on. I have a problem with salepeople that jerk folks around or fiddledy fart about the facts in hopes of catching a sucker. The first G&H saleman could have either let me know up front that the price was firm or he could have kept his word to look into the matter and get back to me in a reasonable time, not two weeks. That is ignoring a customer. That is a discourtesy. That is jerking someone around. I resent it. I'll bet you that pointer grade that you'd resent it.

I contacted the G&H president about the matter via his own address. I was ignored. This told me the practice starts at the top. It is how G&H sees fit to do business. When a company institutionalizes rude or snobby business practices, it is only a matter of time before they go under. It may take a while, but it will come sure as death.

This new group bought the name Griffin and Howe a while back. They are not the original group. They spent money and little else in the hopes of making more. The original folks at Griffin and Howe spent decades of time and tons of effort in establishing an honorable name. They did not do it by snubbing folks or screwing them over. Once they were well established, they catered to the well heeled but did not forget their own roots. They offered only the very best. They did not try to overprice average fare and try to screw over the public into thinking they were getting value for value. Not at first. Then, the business changed. By the 1970's, they were a dead duck, because the average folks saw through the BS, and the wealthy clientele did too. The name was sold, and may have changed ownership more than once.

When it comes to money, most folks, rich or poor, are too smart for hucksters. This new G&H group is making the same mistake. They just moved the shelll game down the block and stuck some new faces behind the counter.

You bought the Pointer grade at a decent price. Smart trade. Good going. Would you have bought it for 150% of the going rate or after the salesman jerked you around then insisted on 125%? I doubt you are a dummy. I also doubt you'd hold back expressing your ill feelings or "ragging on him" iF he gave you "the treatment".

Time and the market proved me correct. I got a better gun for less money. I hope my sharing my experience here helps out the rest of this group. It is in our collective best interest to speak well of those firms that treat us fairly, and rip the bad ones. 'Nuff said. Lets go shoot.
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JCMorella
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 25
Location: Somerset County, NJ

Geez,

I guess that subject has been throughly beaten. ROFL

Good idea, though.... Let's go shoot.


JCM
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:43 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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Location: massachusetts

Yup. I'm nothing if not thorough Rolling Eyes Laughing
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