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Makes one wonder if maybe when they went and changed the powder to the newer , cleaner formula , that it didn't change the burn rate some . Kinda like Nitro vs NF . the newer stuff , you have to back off the load at least a grain from the older stuff . I really feel 16grns GD is the top , and the 15.5 is much nicer !

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

I don't think it is a 'new' issue. The data for Green Dot in the sub gauges started to dwindle several years ago.

Honestly, even in the late 1990's I could never get Green Dot to perform in any hull with a 1 oz. load, at least nothing I thought was worth a second look.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

Well, Green Dot wouldn't be the only Alliant powder that has changed a bit. Steel powder has gotten slightly faster and all the data has changed. I noticed it when I recently had a load tested. I inquired about it with someone that would know and he confirmed that somewhere along the line Steel changed. It is about a 2.0 to 3.0 grain change at least with the buffered load I used it with.

There has been a lot of Green Dot data that Alliant pulled. Some say it was because of Briley complaining because it was supposedly cracking their 20 gauge tubes. But way back in the late 1990's I could never get Green Dot to behave with any 1 oz. loads in the 16 gauge. I just gave up on it. I did get some decent 7/8 oz. loads, but with the wads I was developing loads for you needed a 1/8" wad inside the shotcup to get a proper crimp. Yuck.

Anyway, I believe that Green Dot has changed, just not sure when, but I think it was longer ago than we might think.

FWIW, you might see that the 12 gauge loads haven't changed, and that can happen. Smaller bores have a way of bringing the worst out in a powder.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Mark,

Interesting that in my post above I almost mentied Steel powder. But am trying to keep my posts shorter LOL. It was my first thought as well.

I recall the original change they made to the dot powders to make them cleaner was back around the turn of the Century or shortly after.

Did some digging about the change to green caps on GD and found a post on SGW in 2018 where Randy Wakeman made a claim that Alliant had changed GD again. Paul at Alliant (posts as Alliant Reloading) jumped in and said:

Actually, the formulations have not changed. Sorry for contradicting you Randy, but we covered a lot of ground in our conversation the other day, so I apologize if I led you to believe that we changed the formulas. We did not.
The improvements are the culmination of numerous incremental improvements and investments in process technology and process control. We had developed technology in the 90's manipulate and control the nitrocellulose polymer base to affect burn rate properties to suit the application need. Continuous improvement over the last 20 years has put New River Energetics in a very strong position, so we decided to see if we could improve "the original" 12ga target powder in terms of residue (primarily) and flow characteristics, without changing it's performance envelope and load recommendations. We succeeded, and you guys can be the judge.
Thanks for the interest.
Shoot well,
Paul

I also agree with you that smaller gauges behave differently and are more sensitive to changes. And no matter how they spin it something has changed a few years ago.

I did email Precision tonight see what they say. Pretty sure I will be sending them some loads to test and have planned on it already. Trying to keep the list short and might weed some out yet but right now thinking:

Ched\Ched 18 gr. GD SG16 1 oz.
Ched\Ched 17.2 gr. GD SG16 1 oz..
Ched\W209 17.2 gr. GD SG16 1 oz.
Fed\Fed 209A 17.2 gr. GD SG16 1 oz.
Ched\Ched 17.2 gr. IMR Green SG16 1 oz
Ched\Ched 16.5 gr GD DR16 ⅞ oz.

Yes I have a keg of IMR Green found it in the garage last year. And don't even remember where or when I got it. It was obviously on sale at a good price somewhere so did what I always do with powder, buy it if it is something I might use down the road.

Did some reading after Hodgdon pulled IMR Green data for the 16 and discovered that many have found it not a direct substitution for Green Dot despite what they first said. Pressures have been running higher then GD.

Pretty much coming to the conclusion that if you really want to know accurate pressure you have to send whatever your shooting out for independent testing.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

I don't really agree with the idea that the powder companies don't do a good job. I think they do. I don't believe that any lab is really better than the big boys lab. I think the difference is that we get to trying stuff that the big boys don't, but I wouldn't get too insistent that they don't have good data. Out dated at times, but.......just remember that these are the same guys that are writing the rules and what we many times think is a big deal, really isn't.

Joined: 24 Jul 2016 Posts: 548 Location: Ohio

Cold Iron, I'm really interested in the results of your tests. Do hope you post the results.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

LOL on the BPI!!

When Dan Quisenbury ( I think I spelled it right ) was with Alliant I could talk to him about what we were doing at Precision and kinda sorta get some feed back as to what they were doing, that was mostly with Steel powder. With the lot #2 of Steel powder our numbers were very close. I never could get much out of Hodgdon.

The person that helped the most and still will help you the most, with no biases is Tom Armbrust. He isn't trying to sell anything. I believe that Tom has helped Precision get up and running, just like he helped me.

I am not a big DownRange lover, heck, we had to come up with the data for the DR16. Some of their wads 12S0 and 12S3 clones down right suck. I don't have a lot of confidence in DownRange. I really wish that Claybuster was making the DR16.

If I needed information or I had an iffy load that just had to work, I would depend on Tom Armbrust. Precision is OK, but Tom is the real deal and very much a gentleman.

BTW, did you get any of this weather? We have about 18" of snow or so, a bit cold, but the wind made it challenging!!. I never knew what 'white out' really meant until the last few days. I think that hunting is done for the year!! Maybe a day or two after Christmas?? Maybe?

Here's a picture of my tree rows......drifts are 9' to 10' high....I guess the trees rows did their job.

Cold Iron,

My two 8 pounders of Green Dot were(are) quite new. I bought them in Jan of 2020 through the club. We get components from CAC. Yes they were new packaging with the green lids.
I still have most of one of them.

Jim

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Jim,
Thank you for verifying that. In that case I will load some new package GD up to send in and have tested. Tom doesn't do testing in the Winter so I will use Precision. They did reply to my email already with load data and I'm going to send in most of what I had in mind. Can do a comparison to their existing data points at least 2 of mine are a match for what they have with the previous version of GD.

Talked to Bill at CAC yesterday and ended up ordering 8 bags of the new Heper shot at 6% antimony it is supposed to be as hard or harder then STS. Shipping was a killer but should be worth it.

Mark,
Yes we got it, please keep that crap over on your side of the border Evil or Very Mad

LOL. Still under a blizzard warning until morning although the snow has stopped, wind not so much. High yesterday was -9° today -5°. I think the dogs have had enough already! Yeah hunting season is done for me at this point.

IIRC Tom only does testing in the warmer months because he does it outside. He isn't as cold as we are but I'm sure cold enough for him at this point.

Ha I am not a fan of CB wads although been decades since I've used them. On a hot summer day shooting trap with a good squad where you hardly had time to reload before your turn to shoot again could have strips of plastic hanging out the end of the barrel. My solution to many problems today is just don't shoot trap. Anything but trap!

Merry Christmas and stay warm!

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

Cold Iron.....heck yes it is....everything is cold. The wind died down but it's gonna be -30 tonight.

I agree....anything but trap. Pretty funny though.........the first year in ND, one of the side games at a local SC shoot was to go as far as possible at a round of trap singles, it was a miss and out event. I hadn't shot trap in years and I ran 'em, no cheap hits either!!

Merry Christmas!!

Mark , a side note : Donnie (at MOO Dairy)has a 10/12 ft snow blower on a prairie sized tractor . Maybe a 1/2 mi drive from the road to the house . He's in his 80's and still does that crap - YIKES !! Those pics that show the vastness out there makes one wonder what in he++ those birds are so attracted to !!

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

16ga.Davis

Yeah, these guys have been doing this since they were kids, as in 10 or 11 year olds. It's like you getting in your truck and going to the store.

My neighbor Rick, has a reasonably large farm operation and his Dad is 78 and still drives the grain cart like it's nothing(got to be the busiest job when they are running the 2 combines), picks rocks, mows, bales, feeds the cows, drives the semi, the tri-axles, etc.

One day last winter I had to help out one day and move a 7 series John Deere about a mile so we could feed the cows. Rick's Dad showed me the controls and no big deal and I had never driven any kind of farm equipment before. I couldn't believe the ease and the amount of control you have over a 24,000 lb. tractor.

Didn't mean to hijack the tread...