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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

As a serious Grouse hunter I want my shotgun triggers to have no creep and have a light trigger pull to set the gun off while I hunt. Unfortunately good quality triggers, with light trigger pull, are one of the most expensive parts of a good double gun.
It takes quality engineering and craftsmanship to make a high grade trigger that will last over 100 years without having to be reworked/repaired.
For me I want my triggers to have a 3.5 - 4.5 trigger pull. The 1st trigger on my DT guns should have a trigger pull of 3.2-3.5lb, with little to no creep before firing the gun. On most American Classic double guns the 2nd or back trigger usually has a 4.2-4.8 Lb trigger pull with little to no creep, this engineering is mostly to make sure that the gun does not double fire from the recoil of the 1st shot. Creep meaning how far the trigger has to move before the trigger engages to fire the gun. On my SST guns I like the trigger to have a 3.2-3.4 trigger pull shooting the 1st barrel and a 4.2-4.4 trigger pull to set off the 2nd barrel. The gun should never double fire with a high quality trigger installed correctly. This engineering and craftsmanship cost serious money and is reflected in the cost of the over all price of a high quality double gun. The entry level L.C. Smith, Fox, Parker, LeFever or Ithaca double gun of the golden era of gun making far exceeds the entry quality level of guns being made in modern times, by most foreign gun makers. In fact it is not even fair to compare these 2 different era entry level guns quality wise. The reason an American Sportsman can purchase a modern entry level gun for around $800.00 is the difference in the quality of the guns. Today an entry level Box Lock Fox, Parker, LeFever or Ithaca gun would cost over $4,995.00 to sell to the American Sportsman. The L.C. Smith Side Lock entry level gun, would cost about $7,000 today. IMO a Grouse hunter should have an American Classic or Best German/Uro double gun as his primary bird gun, his back up gun can be a modern entry level double gun.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Modern trigger plate 28 gauge Huglu 200A on top, 1914 L.C. Smith Special Order Field Grade 20 gauge under, at over 100 years old the 20 gauge L.C. Smith is still the higher quality double gun.

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kennedy756
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:04 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 30 Sep 2015
Posts: 637
Location: NEW SALISBURY INDIANA

my 2003 citori lightening had a horrible trigger when i bought it, still in the box only a few rounds thru it. measured 6-7 lbs. Now after shooting a lot of trap it has smoothed out to 3-4 lbs which I am very happy with. I have an old Lafever nitro special with incredible smooth triggers as does my older Ithaca 37. So I hear where you are coming from about old world craftsmanship.

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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

Recently I restocked an SLE and my gunsmith on reassembly noted to me the Trigger pulls were R 2 lb 12 oz - L 4 lb 12 oz. On advice of my gunsmith to try it out before we messed with it. I wanted to hold off playing with it as hunting season was about to start. Although on paper that seemed light on the first barrel, but after hunting it for over 15 days in the field so far this season I have found it no issue.

Sometime ago I thought collecting all my trigger pulls might be interesting. Funny I purchased a trigger gauge years ago, but have yet to take it out of the packaging. I guess unless it is excessively light or heavy I don’t notice it.

Maybe I should take it out of the box and test my favorite guns to see what I find?

Ultimately I believe trigger pull on shotguns is not as critical as rifles or pistol marksmanship. Further I believe it is a personal thing to which some of us are sensitive and others not. Then there are the variables between double triggers and single triggers and within single triggers, selective, non selective, and it goes on.
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MSM2019
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 1819
Location: Central ND

My personal favorite is the 3.5 lb. Timney trigger in my 16 gauge 1100.

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AmericanMeet
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:50 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 3172
Location: NCWa

Would an "entry" level Parker be a Trojan or a VHE?
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Hammer bill
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Posts: 815

kennedy756 wrote:
my 2003 citori lightening had a horrible trigger when i bought it, still in the box only a few rounds thru it. measured 6-7 lbs. Now after shooting a lot of trap it has smoothed out to 3-4 lbs which I am very happy with. I have an old Lafever nitro special with incredible smooth triggers as does my older Ithaca 37. So I hear where you are coming from about old world craftsmanship.


I had the same experience. Out of the box the trigger pull was 7 lbs according to my pull gauge. But now it's right at 4lbs after shooting trap for five years. Perfect for me. It has some creep which I like to set just before calling for the target.
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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

AmericanMeet wrote:
Would an "entry" level Parker be a Trojan or a VHE?


Trojan for Parker
Sterlingworth for Fox
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:18 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

As you can read in the posts, even quality guns can have trigger problems right from the factory. Most times this does not happen with a quality gun, the QC is done at the factory to assure the trigger pull is correct before shipping. Most times the Classic American guns had little to no trigger pull problems, the quality trigger was one of the main selling points on theses guns. In modern times the entry level guns from foreign countries, especially Turkey and others, have problems with decent trigger pull and doubling. The quality is not built into the gun from the beginning, saving the manufacturer money and allowing the cost of the entry level gun to be at the $800.00 level.

Myself I do not like a gun to have a hard trigger pull, to me it is an engineering sign of a low quality gun. Many sportsman allow for this problem and use the gun until the trigger pull wears in to what they like. When I pay for a quality gun I expect that gun to work correctly, including the trigger pull.

I also like my good guns to have zero creep on the trigger pull. Today this is a big problem for some modern gun manufacturers, in fact they engineer to have the guns sent in for rework, allowing the gun to sell at an inexpensive cost, and many guns are not sent back to have the triggers reworked and made correctly, increasing the companies profit margin.

IMO I have been lucky and most of my modern guns have a trigger pull of around 5lbs, however I would not say this is the average for the modern gun trigger pull, many have trigger pull above 7lbs and way to much Creep in the trigger.

IMO trigger pull is an important part of a good double gun, the engineering and craftsmanship do cost money, and should be accomplished before the gun leaves the factory, not after the sale to the customer.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:25 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Gentlemen,

Having a good trigger pull gauge to actually know your guns trigger pull is something we like to have in our gun safe. We use to have a simple mechanical gauge that I was not all that confident in. After the gauge wore out, I invested in the Lyman Electronic Digital Trigger Pull Gauge. Lyman advertises this trigger pull gauge as the World'd most accurate Trigger Gauge. It has a storage unit for 10 different trigger pulls so that you can see the average trigger pull weight, on your gun triggers. I have found that the higher quality gun triggers pull weight, is almost the same every time. The cheaper made guns triggers, tend to have a pull weight that varies, sometimes greatly. The Lyman Electronic Trigger Pull Gauge is on sale right now at Midway for about $39.95. This Lyman trigger gauge works real well on all my guns.

I am in no way employed by Midway or Lyman, my recommendations come from personal usage of equipment, intended only to help the shooting sportsman.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Brewster11
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:12 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 1301
Location: Western WA

We’ve been fortunate that all our scatterguns have uniformly excellent triggers.

Except for one.

A little 28 ga CZ Bobwhite sxs , great to carry, points like a wand, but with triggers suitable for a road crew jackhammer. I think I could twirl the gun around my head with my finger on the trigger and not have it fire. It feels like my knuckle has turned white by the time it finally breaks.

I set it on a digital kitchen scale which showed 12 lbs net when the heaviest trigger broke. I realize that’s not a proper reference value, but it indicates how bad it is. I’d be happy with 5 lbs, but I’m not about to try to change it myself. It needs to be seen by a gunsmith one of these days.

B.
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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:21 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Old colonel2 wrote:
Recently I restocked an SLE and my gunsmith on reassembly noted to me the Trigger pulls were R 2 lb 12 oz - L 4 lb 12 oz. On advice of my gunsmith to try it out before we messed with it. I wanted to hold off playing with it as hunting season was about to start. Although on paper that seemed light on the first barrel, but after hunting it for over 15 days in the field so far this season I have found it no issue.

Sometime ago I thought collecting all my trigger pulls might be interesting. Funny I purchased a trigger gauge years ago, but have yet to take it out of the packaging. I guess unless it is excessively light or heavy I don’t notice it.

Maybe I should take it out of the box and test my favorite guns to see what I find?

Ultimately I believe trigger pull on shotguns is not as critical as rifles or pistol marksmanship. Further I believe it is a personal thing to which some of us are sensitive and others not. Then there are the variables between double triggers and single triggers and within single triggers, selective, non selective, and it goes on.


**LIKE** Or as a Retired Navy Chief Machinest Mate dead nuts on.

Trigger gauge is important for pistols and rifle, shotguns not so much. I have mine in my shotgun tool kit



Along with a bunch of metal snap caps under the insulation to use it. But is the least used tool in my toolbox.

The bore gauges are a lot more important. Chokes fixed or tubes can be all across the board. And the 16 ga. is the wild west of them all. A lot of guns out there have been modified over the years and unless you know you don't know.
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Cold Iron
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:26 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 746
Location: Mn.

Brewster11 wrote:
We’ve been fortunate that all our scatterguns have uniformly excellent triggers.

Except for one.

A little 28 ga CZ Bobwhite sxs , great to carry, points like a wand, but with triggers suitable for a road crew jackhammer. I think I could twirl the gun around my head with my finger on the trigger and not have it fire. It feels like my knuckle has turned white by the time it finally breaks.

I set it on a digital kitchen scale which showed 12 lbs net when the heaviest trigger broke. I realize that’s not a proper reference value, but it indicates how bad it is. I’d be happy with 5 lbs, but I’m not about to try to change it myself. It needs to be seen by a gunsmith one of these days.

B.


I got a CZ Sharptail 16 through the LEO\Military program a few years ago and it is the only gun I have ever owned that had heavy trigger pulls. My Dickinson Plantation Sporters (12, 16, and 20) are also made in Turkey but by a different company. And price point they are as good as any of my Italian guns.

CZ would work on that trigger and could have used them for mine, no charge. But had John Singer on here work on it and he did a great job. They are now where they should be and crisp. But I still can't warm up to that gun.

I know at least one person that has the CZ 28 Bobwhite in the G2 variant and really likes it. And he shoots it well.
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:54 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Brewster11,

I can understand your frustration, my CZ Bob White 28 gauge G2 has a 5.2lb trigger pull on the 1st trigger and the 2nd trigger pull weight is just over 6lbs. Now to me this is not a quality trigger pull, for the G2 28 gauge gun, however it is way better than the 7 or 8 lb trigger pull on the original CZ 28 guns. Remember you are still dealing with a modern entry level CZ gun, costing you around $800.00. This is one of the reasons I keep advising my clients to purchase an American Classic double gun as their primary Grouse gun. I would contact CZ and see if they will do anything about your hard trigger pull, under warranty. 12 lbs is definitely not acceptable trigger pull even for an entry level double gun.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Old colonel2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 07 Jun 2020
Posts: 224

Curious subject area not often discussed, most likely because unless excessively light or heavy most do not notice it much and there are so many things that are so much more important such as gun fit, chokes, weight, balance, etc.

I took the time to do a quick uncalibrated run through my part of my gunsafe with my just opened electronic trigger gauge. It was harder than I thought it would be to get consistent readings but this is what I found.

Purdey 16ga SLE (1898) R- 3lbs2oz & L-4lbs 7oz
Boss 12ga SLE (1901) R- 2lbs 10oz & L-4lbs 11oz
Alex Martin SLE #1 (1926) R- 3lbs 9oz & L-3lbs 13oz
Alex Martin SLE #2 (1926) R- 4lbs 8oz & L- 4lbs 11oz
Greener 16ga BLE (1924) R- 4lbs 10oz & L- 5lbs 7oz
E.M. Reilly 16ga BLNE (1905) R- 5lbs 2oz & L-5lbs 12oz
Fox 16ga A grade BLNE (1946) R- 5lbs 10oz & L-5lbs 2oz
Louis Christophe 16ga SLE (1925) R- 3lbs 9oz & L- 4lb 9oz
Louis Christophe 20ga SLE (1920) R- 3lbs 10oz & L- 3lbs 13oz
Trulock Brothers 12ga SLE #1 (1890) R- 3lbs 10oz & L- 4lbs 3oz
Trulock Brothers 12ga SLE #2 (1890) R- 4.2lbs & L- 4.7lbs
Army&Navy 16ga Side Lever Hammer Single (1872) 2lbs 3oz
Browning Superposed 12ga BLE SST (1956) 5lbs 2oz
Winchester M21 12 ga BLE SST (1954) 4lbs 12oz
Franchi Eldorado 12ga Auto R-7lbs 8oz

What surprised me the most is that I had never noticed the heavy or light trigger pulls on any of the guns. I don’t recall the trigger pull on the Superposed bothering me when I ran 25 straight at skeet. I note the results could be off as I am a novice at using the gauge and had some big differences between three tests, so much so I remeasured some guns a couple times to find some coherence in results.

I hope taking the time to measure something that never interested me much will not start obsessing on it too much and make me hypersensitive to it.

While heavy trigger pull can be a challenge with some mass produced guns, I doubt if much time was spent testing vintage side by sides, American, British, Belgian etc that some bad examples cannot be found in all and none uniquely produced only prefect examples

I add that the trigger pull weight while of minor interest rarely if ever appears in even the most detailed advertisements for sale. So much so I cannot recall ever seeing it in a shotgun offered for sale, nor have I ever asked a seller the question in over 60 purchases
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Pine Creek/Dave
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Mar 2017
Posts: 2786
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

oldcol2,

The reason you never questioned the trigger pull on your guns is they are quality guns with good triggers. None have excessively hard trigger pull like the entry level modern guns today. You have made my point for me, about quality guns having quality trigger pull. Thanks for posting your trigger pull results, on some very nice guns.

If you had a bunch of modern entry level guns to also check the trigger pull on, you would see a completely different result, of inconstant and hard trigger pull.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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