16ga.com ~ View topic - New green lid Green Dot powder test results

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Couple of years ago Alliant decided to make the Dot powders cleaner burning, once again they did it once before ~2008 and 20 ga. tubes starting to crack so they pulled 20 ga. green dot data for 7/8 GD loads.

With the most recent change Alliant Reloading on SGW said they didn't change the formulation just the manufacturing process. But on TS.com and even here Jim have all seen an increase in velocity and pressure with the new green lid Green Dot. So decided it was time to verify it, as that is my go to for the 16.

Actually there was a time, long ago, when we used Green Dot for everything except the 410. Mike Campbell was a fan of GD for a good reason and so am I.

Got the results back today and the new Green Dot is not the Green Dot of just a couple years ago.

All powder charges trickle dropped with a RCBS Chargemaster. Shot hand weighed to one pellet in grains of the listed load. All crimps are standard .055 deep.

Blue line is Precision results from 2019 with old green dot. Green is Jims with Toms results using 15\16 oz. of shot. Bottom is mine from Precision with 1 oz. to mirror Precisions' testing in 2019. Red is over pressure.

Primer substitution for 17.0 gr. which with the old GD should have been ~1200 fps with the old green dot. CX2000 and F209A are now the same velocity. Pressure is higher in the F209A however.

19.0 is now over limit even with 1 oz. The 15 gr. load does not make sense. I will redo it and send in for testing most likely with a 14.5 as well. Not sure if the wheels fell off the wagon on that set with the new GD or it was me. Will try to verify. In the meantime 16.0 is the old 17.0.

Ched\Ched is the same velocity as the Fed\Fed. However despite the Federal having more hull capacity the pressure is higher.

Have a keg of IMR Green so decided to test it as well. Not sure where or when I got it IIRC paid $125 for it. Wish I would had gotten a LOT of them. Lon on here tested it several years ago and said the SD was low and data same as the old GD. Yeah he was spot on. Like I said wish I would have bought more of it as it is now discontinued.

DR16 makes no sense in the Ched\Ched. That is another that will go back for testing. With the new GD will drop down to 15.0 gr. as 16.0 is still way too fast for what I want. The light blue is what Precision tested with the old GD and the new matches it with a gr. and a half less.

Joined: 24 Jul 2016 Posts: 548 Location: Ohio

Thanks for the data. Under 16 grains seem to be the magic number. I'm still using a black cap bottle and stay at about 15.5 anyway. Green Dot is all I use for target and doves both in 12 and 16.

Thanks for confirming this. Was precision testing off, calculated, or did Green Dot really change?

Jim

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

Cold Iron,

The first chart using Federal hulls and Federal primers is very similar to the results I got using Green Dot back in 1999/2000(I used the Z2M16 wad). I had to drop the velocities to 1150 FPS to get the chamber pressure within SAAMI MAP, so I stopped trying to produce data for it.

Just perusing your data it seems like Green Dot is touchy stuff in certain combinations. Look at some of the chamber pressure SD and EV numbers, they go from good to crappy with basically no big changes. The chamber pressure for this kind of application should have EV's 1,000 PSI or under, the worst they should be is 1,500 PSI. Those random, big EV's are telling you that there is something else going on, that we don't understand. The very first chart tells you it doesn't like what you are asking it to do. 1/16 oz. of additional, shot makes the SD/EV go from wonderful to iffy? That shouldn't happen.

IMHO Green Dot in the smaller gauges is a bit of a drama queen, some combinations work wonderfully and with some combos, it loses it's cool. There is no question in my mind why Alliant removed Green Dot from its 20 and 16 gauge data.

As I said over on SGW, I can think of better powders for 16 ga. 1 oz. loads.

I know that you think I am trying my best to be an a*****e, but I have seen this show with Green Dot before and she is one temperamental lady for this application.

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 91

Got back into shells at the worst possible time last year, especially looking for powder.
Ironically, i came across GD & could have got some but my buddy Jim had just had some loads tested with discouraging results. I never made that purchase & now i'm glad i didn't. There's enough trouble getting the other stuff and a GD headache is just not worth it. Like Mark says "I can think of better powders for 16 ga. 1 oz. loads. I did manage some Universal & Unique.

Joined: 06 Jan 2021 Posts: 89 Location: Florida

Thank you very much for taking the time and money to do this. I have been primarily using Imr green for 20/16/ and some 12 gauge reloading especially with 3/4oz payloads. I’m almost out of Imr green and have 5 lbs of green dot waiting on the shelf to circle through the rotation next. My 3/4oz favorite loads were right at 15 grains of Imr green so I should be in the ballpark even swapping to green dot. I do have some heavier payload loads with it and I likely need to re evaluate that usage.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Mark nah I don't think you are trying to be an a*****e Very Happy

I do listen and read pretty much everything you write and have taken it into consideration over the years.

Those Federal loads are with a tapered wad in a straight wall hull. And velocity is way more than I would want anyhow. My goal is 1180-1220 fps. I have no desire to go faster than that with any shell.

Throwing out the 15.0 Ched\Ched the SD and Pressure ES are better than pretty much any other load posted on TS.com where people are putting their test results up, most in 12 ga. Ben at Alliant has always said Pressure ES less than 2,000 is extremely good and if you take the 15.0 out of the equation they are less than half that. In fact they are outstanding.

I'm not convinced that the 15.0 is the powder, I'm blaming myself. Obviously to get such close numbers that I did there was a lot of attention to detail. They are better than most I have seen anywhere with the exception of the 15.0 and DR16. But I am human. Same goes for the Ched\Ched DR16 load I'm going with it was me.

I'm redoing those 2 and sending them in again. But not happy with the DR16 Fed load either although it still isn't bad. But would prefer to see the Press ES lower even though it is in theory still pretty good.

Maybe the DR16 isn't the answer after all. The answer is actually done by patterning. Not with numbers that really don't mean a lot except for not exceeding SAAMI MAP. I don't shoot a lot of 7/8 16 with the exception of the month before hunting season when the 6 pound guns come out to play. Swore off fillers but just ordered some 28 ga. 1/8 and 1/4" undershot cards from Precision to test as well.

Doesn't hurt to have another tool in the toolbox. And if you look at the chart for Ched\Ched SG16 those numbers are outstanding with GD with the exception of the 15.0. Like I said I blame me Embarassed

Will know in a few weeks for sure.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

Cold Iron,

The issue with the pressure EV, is the randomness. If it went in a reasonable pattern, that would be one thing, but it doesn't go in any pattern. It shows up and goes away, with little change. Good loads don't do that. Changing a couple of grains of powder or changing the shot amount by 27 grains should not make a huge difference in the pressure EV's.

I have a feeling that you could shoot a number of these loads over again and get a different outcome that is meaningful. The data just doesn't inspire confidence, at least for me.

I don't think you messed up reloading and I don't think the DR16 is the problem. I have sent in loads using 700-X and American Select for the DR16 and the results were very good. The AS load had a velocity SD of 2 with an EV of 7 and a pressure EV of 300 PSI. The 700-X had velocity SD of 11 and an EV of 30 with a pressure EV of 1050 PSI.

When I was working with Tom Armbrust we used 1500 PSI EV as maximum. Even for the heavy loads using Blue Dot and Steel powders. Not saying I could always make the 1500 PSI limit, but it was a rare combination that I had to accept anything over that. These light loads using fast powders, are rarely a problem.

Just to be clear, I am not saying there is anything that suggests a dangerous issue to a reasonably well made shotgun with the loads you have had tested, even the ones over MAP. I am only referring to the consistency of the ballistics.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Interesting---I have an 8lber w/the the green lid--will keep this in mind.

Joined: 09 Mar 2016 Posts: 754 Location: Mn.

Not sure I am following you Mark

Pressure EV is below 1500 on all except that stupid 15.0 load and even then close. And the numbers are extremely low. Especially Velocity SD those are some of the lowest I have ever seen.

Pressure curve is normal with the typical belly

Velocity is very linear. Normally get 3 or 4 gr. max out of that

The top eventually will take a steep left and pressure go up as well. Not that I care as it already at the max and is dead to me LOL. The bottom will normally take a dive to the right and drop at some point. Which is surprising that the 15 if plotted is a steep turn to the left.

15.5 should get me 1180 which is an option I want. Plus loading 7/8 oz. and trying to keep pressure up and velocity down. Alliant messed everything up with this change by moving things at least a full gr. on the pressure curve and I'm worried about it being too low now in the 1200 fps range. Prefer 9K-10.5K PSI range if possible.

Looking at the Precision data it hit me that they have wad pressure set at 40 pounds. I run zero and have for a long, long time. Did occur to me a couple hours ago that with only 15.0 gr. of powder there is a good chance I am not seating the wad on the powder fully. There is a chance, so going to give that a try and see if can get some consistency out of the 15.0 gr. And 15.5 gr. as well. Think a DR16 in Ched with 15.5 also as the 16.0 is pretty fast at 1250. Hopefully the 15.0 will come through but you may very well be right and it is the bottom. You do reach it eventually.

The old green dot excelled there for 7/8 oz. loads. The new GD thinking not so much. I'm not going with the Alliant term new and improved.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

In the first post there are 3 loads that exhibit high EV's on chamber pressure and seem to be all aligned with small amounts of Green Dot. Along with a 7/8 oz. load that has a reasonable jump in pressure with a primer change from Ched 209 to Fed 209A. Another 7/8 oz. load has an EV that is off the chart. While there isn't enough data to really understand it, the trend is not good. It might just be that you aren't working the Green Dot enough with the 7/8 oz. loads and the one 1 oz. load but.........

Remember that these are light loads using a powder with a reasonably high relative quickness number. From my POV 1500 PSI EV is a little much, not that I have never seen it in target loads, but they aren't the norm.

The loads I had tested with the DR16 had velocities were 1260, 1339, 1380 and 1429. 16 grains of 700-X for the 1260 velocity, 18.0 grains American Select for the 1339 and 23.0 grains of Universal for the other two. And none of those loads are anywhere close to 1500 PSI EV number. The AS load is 3/4 oz. the other three are 7/8 oz. loads.

Seating the wad firmly on the powder is important, and may change the EV's. The DR16 is tough to put 40 lbs. of wad pressure on and still get the crimps you want on some loads. With the DR16, I have always used just enough wad pressure to ever so slightly bump the wad pressure indicator.

The other loads actually look pretty good. I just wish that there was a good explanation of pattern to the loads I noted. A grain or two of powder normally doesn't have a huge effect on ballistics, along with 27 grains of shot.

If you look at the loads, it seems that GD only has a two grain working range. 15.0 grains suck and depending on components, 18.0 and 19.0 grains is over MAP. So 16.0 & 17.0? That's a bit touchy.

Again, nothing dangerous, just a seemingly, very narrow range.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 1842 Location: Central ND

FWIW

If YOU were the person that was legally and professionally responsible for publishing loads, even with the limited data that you have posted, would you publish 16 gauge 1 oz. Green Dot loads?

IMHO I wouldn't.

I once heard the statement........the American public will either try to break it, eat it or have sex with it......it's a good statement to remember when it's your reputation on the line.

Joined: 08 Mar 2022 Posts: 91

"I once heard the statement........the American public will either try to break it, eat it or have sex with it......it's a good statement to remember when it's your reputation on the line."

hahahah.... my basset hound had HIS order of priorities, He'd smell it to see if i was edible, if not, could he screw it, if not, he would urinate on it, and walk away.... I'll do the same with GD.

Joined: 08 Feb 2009 Posts: 1310 Location: Western WA

Cold Iron, I suspect you don’t need to re test the DR16 with Ched hulls. You may already have the answer if you look at the individual shots. I saw much the same on some 800X loads where Tom A. noted that the crimp had popped on an outlier shot where the pressure was extremely low.

With testing like this it often makes sense to use a statistical method called “censoring” where obvious outliers are discarded. In this case the low outliers would be discarded, certainly not any high numbers.

I don’t have the dimensions of the DR16 at hand, but if it was designed for WAA hulls it maybe a loose fit in Ched hulls. If so, you could lose powder grains when seating the wad as the escaping air blows the grains past the wad seal. I’ve seen it with other wads.

V/R
B.