16ga.com ~ View topic

Gents,

I recently acquired a 16 ga Newport side by side (no CN or WN after Newport on the side plate) with a serial number of 35503 stamped on the forearm metal and "flats" of the reciever...they're actually curved not flat. Someone polished the reciever and side plates to a mirror finish, but the barrels show some wear in the bluing.

I'm curious about a few things and this group has the most expertise based I my reading here.

First, was the gun manufactured by Crescent/Davis/??? in Norwich, CT? I bought it mostly because of my connection to CT and hunting woodcock around Norwich for 10 years in grad school.

Second, what year was it likely made? I can find information about Newport being a "trade name gun" that Crescent made (like a 100 different names or so), but can't find years for each or matching serial numbers for the different names or years

Third, is this gun likely chambered for either 2 1/2" or 2 9/16" shells? I would like to be able to use the gun (following a competent gunsmith check) and reload my own. I just need to know what size shells are correct. I'm assuming it was made before 2 3/4" became the standard.

Finally, the gun seems to fire properly (as in the firing pins strike the primer area solidly) when using snap caps. However, when I move the gun around the firing pins seem to "fall" in and out of the openings on the face of the receiver. I can hear it when the gun is cocked, but after firing on the snap caps the noise/sliding/falling stops. What am I seeing/hearing with this firearm?

This is my first sidelock shotgun and I bought for very little money mostly as a connection to the area. If, after inspection, I can't fire it with low pressure loads it's not the end of the world. I would just like to know more about it if possible

Thanks in advance for your input.

brian

Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 444 Location: WI

I would strongly suggest having a competent gunsmith check the gun. It most likely has 2-9/16” chambers, or at least did from the factory. These were not high grade guns and were made very cheaply under contract, most likely before 1930. I read somewhere that the records of the Crescent company were lost in the early 1940’s due to a war time paper recycling effort. Firing pins rattling around as you describe is not uncommon with a gun made with no return springs and either loose tolerances or wear.

Google “Folsom, Crescent and Tradename guns” in Google Docs, lots of info there. You will need to verify the lock design, but I’m guessing you have an Empire or New Empire. There is no reliable way to date by SN, but if you scroll down about 1/2 way, you will see listed some serial numbers by years which are only based on numbers of guns produced divided by number of years. My guess is 1926 or 27. I have a New Empire from about 1926, bought for the connection to Norwich, and I do plan to take some woodcock with it eventually. It is very likely your gun is from Norwich.

Have the bores checked out by a gunsmith before shooting, and check the chamber length because they were likely originally 2.5”. That said, apparently they used good steel and lots of it, as my chambers were lengthened and the end of chamber measurement is within safe min wall thickness and they have the thickest forcing cones of all my doubles, old or new. You need to be sure of reliable barrels, as pitting is likely in an old gun.

As far as the firing pins, they have no firing pin springs similar to some other doubles, so they will “rattle” when the hammers are off the pins (cocked & ready to fire).

Crescents have a tendency to be loose; take the forearm off the barrels and shake the gun by the barrels with the stock/receiver attached. If it makes noise some peening may be in order. Also have your gunsmith check the headspace (the depth of the breech rim of the chamber) mine are out of spec deep. The head of the stock may well be cracked/split, similar to other sidelocks. It can be repaired if it is not too oily or too far gone.

These are cheap guns, but they can be fun and classy looking. Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in. If you shoot it after a gunsmith says it’s safe, keep to low pressure/low speed ammo; less than 8500psi and less than 7/8 oz at 1165 fps. Good luck!

Gentlemen,
If the gun he is talking about is a Crescent side lock double gun under any of the other company names, if this entry level side lock double gun was made today, it would cost over $3,000 just to make the gun. I have both the original Crescent 16 Gauge Hammer Gun and a 12 Gauge Crescent Side Lock Hammerless double gun.
They have stood the test of time and still function perfectly, even after heavy usage.

If the owner would post some pictures of his 16 gauge double gun I would appreciate it. Would love to see it.

all the best,

Pine creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Brian
Welcome on your first posting
What a fun shotgun.
Do you have the ability to post pictures using a hosting site like

www.jpgbox.com

We would be able to assist better

Welcome !!!
Mike

p.s. what grad school? I got my Masters in Engineering a LONG time ago Smile

Crescent did make a Newport double for Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co.
Look around here, and let us know what you have
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ/edit

About 1920 the catalog list for the Crescent hammerless was $30, but it could be purchased for as low as $16 from catalogs, sporting goods and hardware stores.

Thanks for the info folks!

As you can see the sideplates and receiver have been polished to a mirror finish. The bores are mirror inside, but the outside of the barrels looks to have been reblued before and some of that is coming off on the left side especially.

On the right side of the gun one of the pins on the sideplate is sticking out a bit and I'm curious about that too.

The forearm is attached with authority (it's quite hard to get off) and everything is tight when it's on, but the barrels have some slight wiggle when I manage to get it off. So that will need to be addressed by a gunsmith. What's the best way to get them back on face; shim, larger hinge pin, or???

I still need to check the chokes, but the chambers certainly appear to be shorter than 2 3/4".

I reload all of my own 16 ga shells with low pressure bismuth loads (7000 psi), but those are all based on 2 3/4" shells, not 2 1/2" shells. What length do I need to cut the hulls to and does anyone have any lead or bismuth load recipes (Green Dot or Longshot powder) they'd care to share for a 2 1/2" shell? Am I going to need to learn how to roll crimp my shells now too?

The wood around the side plates and throughout the stock is good with no visible cracks anywhere.

Hopefully the images come through below and you folks can help me learn some other things about this gun.

FYI Mike- I did a MS and a PhD in Wildlife at UConn studying contaminants in American woodcock...got basically paid to "collect" (really go hunting for woodcock) birds all over CT for a few years

Look forward to more feedback/discussion!

Brian

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*Last edited by revdocdrew on Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total*

The 'pins sticking out' are the cocking indicators, so it's a Knickerbocker No. 6

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-6KsrBdF/A]

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Yes, it has been reblued. Hopefully the blue job was not with hot caustic salts or the ribs will soon separate from the barrels.
The action was originally case colored.
It may have been restocked, or possibly as a tradename gun was not checkered and not fitted with a capped pistol grip.
'Mirror' bores in a refinished vintage gun are very suggestive of honing

It almost certainly started out with 2 9/16" chambers.

I would strongly urge you to have a double gun specialist measure the wall thicknesses from breech to muzzle, and confirm the chamber length and chokes.

Youtube of a Crescent Newport, without checkering and with a round knob stock. Very high condition case colors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2JKkOJ8vPw

I respectfully question the Doctor’s opinion of the cocking indicator. On my gun that is the spot where the hammer is pinned and rotates, unless I am looking at your picture wrong. I have never taken apart a Peerless or Knickerbocker though. I agree wholeheartedly with him on the possibility of honing and the need for a thorough wall thickness check.

Regarding the looseness, the “best” way to fix it is a new hinge pin, but I imagine that would be more than the cost of the gun.

I suggest a choke & chamber combo gauge from Galazan’s, it can be found from other suppliers. Checks 12, 16, 20, 28 & .410. Very handy for rough estimates in a pinch. Then you could trim your shells to fit. There are many possibilities for loads, including using your current recipes and substituting nitro cards and fiber wads. Roll crimp is optional. I’m away from my spreadsheet right now or I’d post one.

The stock will split first inside & behind the lock plates where it meets the receiver. Disassembly is required to check it. Not sure if you did that or not, so I apologize if you did, but I did not gather that from your post.

I believe I saw this gun on Gunbroker. I was very intrigued because I like the stock vs the one on mine, but I gained favor with the wife by holding off.

*Last edited by revdocdrew on Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:31 pm; edited 3 times in total*

Citori16 is correct; the cocking indicator on the 1st model No. 6

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-zHdjZcP/A]

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So it would be a “No. 6 Peerless (The Old Knickerbocker Improved)” without cocking indicators made c. 1916-1925, the “Empire” No. 60 1925-1929, or the “New Empire” No. 88 and No. 9 listed in Catalog No. 27 in 1929.
There is a guide to estimated DOM by SN in the link I posted.

Y'all are AWESOME, I really like this site Shocked

*Last edited by revdocdrew on Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total*

A tradename Crescent Empire No. 60 with the hammer pin sticking out

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-RVc7r5j/A]

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Empire No. 60 lock

[url=https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Gun-Stuff/Folsom-Crescent/i-mS5mVb3/A]

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"flats" of the reciever...they're actually curved not flat.

I have only seen this on Belgian guns where the flats match the curve of the barrels.

Joined: 17 Oct 2019 Posts: 456 Location: New Jersey

If you load on a 600 Jr you can get the short kit which is a 1/4” plate that you place at the base. That’s what I use and it works great, very cheap.