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Had a few off-sounding shots today with unburned powder in the barrels. About 3-4 per box. It was in the teens today while shooting and I typically leave my loads outside. Just wondering if anyone has experienced that with Titewad. They still broke clays with authority. Was also wondering if the cold temps would make the wads stiff enough to cause blow by or to break during ignition. I typically check my drops before reloading and randomly through the session, so I don’t think I had any anemic drops.

Next shooting day I might leave the boxes in the shack and see if there’s a difference.

Maybe the cold weather affected the powder and slowed the payload below the speed of sound giving you the off sound. I have shot a lot of the old Herters 12g low recoil shells that run at 1060 feet per second. That is below the speed of sound and often other shooters would ask about the lower sound without the crack of the sound barrier. They broke clay targets with authority.

Joined: 09 Dec 2022 Posts: 55 Location: Washington

I had thought Titewad was designed to be stable in varied temps?
I have used it and like it but I have not experimented with it in varied temps. Watching to see your continued reports.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

What was the load?

Powder is only good at low temps when it is used in it's wheel house. As an example, a 16 ga. 3/4 oz. load at 1,150 FPS probably isn't going to get it done in the cold weather.

I have used Titewad with 1 oz. 12 gauge loads at 1,250 FPS and have never had a problem in the winter.

I was able to get out and shoot a couple rounds of skeet today after shoveling my house and the club. Today started around freezing and got into the 40’s. I left my gear in the car not knowing if I would have someone to shoot with. With the sun coming out the car interior got fairly warm, 60’s at least. I didn’t have any odd sounding loads.

Not a scientific test by any means but a data point. There’s obviously more variables involved, like possibly undistorted wads, etc. Thinking I might hand load some new primed shells with measured drops and wait for another cold day to test.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Wads don't create problems when it gets cold. Think about steel shot wads and how stiff they are and the temps that the loads are used in. Yesterday the temp was 11 degrees and I was using R16's (you know how old those are) and CB0078-16 wads with SR7625 and N320 . The ammo was outside, sitting on a picnic table for at least 3 hours(it was completely cloudy, no sun). Not one issue and I was shooting my 1100 and used 125 rounds.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Temps are huge when it comes to chemical reactions. I read somewhere about how each 10 degrees slows the chemical reaction some X amount and it isn't insignificant. So dropping the temperature from say 70 degrees F to 20 degrees F isn't a small change. If you start out with a chamber pressure of 7K, depending on the components you could easily end up with a chamber pressure of 4K. I wish I could remember where I saw the article, because it had a calculator with it and I am sure there is an engineer here that would know how to use it.

I have cold soaked many loads to 0 degrees F and with some loads the velocities drop off 10% and more (5% or less is what is considered acceptable) and they sound terrible and leave a lot of crud in the barrel. A number of these loads were 16 gauge 1 and 1 1/8 oz. loads using W572 and Federal 209A primers. A switch to other primers, just made it worse.

Missed your earlier post Mark. I was shooting 16gr of Titewad, Ch209, DR16, nitro card & 3/4 oz in Fiocchi hulls. I mention the distorted wad because I have taken apart loads that seemed to go in fine only to find out they grabbed a bit of the hull mouth on the way in and got slightly mangled. These are practice loads so I am not as worried as I would be with hunting or match loads, but just trying to get an idea if it’s the Indian or the arrow.

Were it summer, I would just chalk it up to what we call a “cocked wad”, which tends to bring out a bit of humor in our club. But we usually never “hear” as many as I had yesterday. I didn’t want to implicate the wad, but Titewad has been a very reliable powder for me in the past so I am trying to consider all the angles, including operator error.

Joined: 09 Dec 2022 Posts: 55 Location: Washington

I have only used Titewad in handgun loads, but have not noticed any issues summer or winter.
I have done a lot of waterfowl hunting and 98% of the time left the same reload ammo in the vehicle from freezing to hot weather. I have not noticed any real difference. While I have seen temperature discussions about both shotshell's and metallic shell's, I have not experienced any problems or seen enough of a difference to worry about.
Maybe just lucky on my component choices? Or maybe too dense to notice!

GWP,

These are practice loads, and in my club we are keen to pickup and humorously harass people on their reloads. We teased one guy for his crimps every time he missed, and he's our best shot in the club. One guy on our team bought a bunch of ammo that you would swear was loaded by oompa-loompas and we were merciless on him for a couple matches. It's all in fun, and his lead did not change, and neither did mine during this weekend.

I would think waterfowl loads would use some cold hardy powders like Longshot or Blue Dot, so you may not have had any issues, but then again I wouldn't notice an odd sounding shot in a duck blind unless it was really bad. Titewad would not be my first choice for waterfowl loads given the higher pressures for a standard (heavy) load.

We'll see what happens when I handload a couple boxes using new hulls and measured drops, if only for the data.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Citori16,

That is a light load, especially in a Fiocchi hull.

In a 12 gauge Fiocchi hull a 7/8 oz. 12 gauge load is at 8,100 PSI with 17.7 grains of Titewad. Probably gonna put the 16 gauge 3/4 oz. load using 16.0 grains in the 7,500 PSI range. Cool the temps down and that load will be lucky to be 6,000 PSI. The 16.0 grains probably will be OK in the cold with a 7/8 oz. load.

3/4 oz. of shot isn't a 16 gauge load, not really. It isn't enough to make the powder 'work'. So you probably will either have to add powder like maybe 2 grains or add some payload, to get it to be good in the cold.

If you look at a burn rate chart Titewad looks like it is faster than RD or Clays powders but in application it doesn't act that way. Look at the amount of Titewad that is used in a Federal GM hull, it needs 20 grains to get 1,290 FPS with a 1 oz. payload. That is almost the same as Red Dot and Clays. Titewad acts slower than the burn rate charts suggest. Titewad acts the same as Red Dot and Clays with 1 1/8 loads also.

Mark,

Thanks for the insight, I will likely make up some 7/8 oz loads to compare with my 3/4 oz cold soaked. Possibly 30 of each to run 5 through the chrony and to shoot a round.

I will have to send a few to precision for testing, as well as some others I have been meaning to send. I'm very curious now on the pressure of the TW loads.

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

Yeah, I would be really interested to see what the pressures and velocities are with Titewad.

I am going to play with N320 and 7/8 oz. loads when cold soaked. I don't care about the pressures as Tom Armbrust already tested the loads, but I am curious about the velocities when cold. I have the perfect weather to test in as it is in the single digits here.

Joined: 26 Jun 2020 Posts: 167 Location: Spokane, WA

Mark can you share that load that was tested. Thanks

Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 2180

silverbowff,

I did have Tom Armbrust test the 7/8 oz. load using N320, but it was over MAP. I backed it off two grains and I am using it. I do not know the exact velocity or chamber pressure. I am going to check the velocity, but seeing how Tom doesn't test in the winter it maybe 2 or 3 months before I have it tested.

So I am a little hesitant to post that load until Mr. Armbrust gets me some numbers.