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Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

I'm currently reading Bristers book where he stated that at the time of its writing, the average off the shelf high velocity hunting load (high brass) was packed with soft shot and therefore, he got better performance from factory trap and pigeon loads (low brass) becasue the shot was harder. The perfomance criteria was 40+ yards.

He also got better performance from the trap and pigeon loads over some reloads until he opended up the trap loads removed the hard shot, and place it in his reloads. Obviously, the final analogy is that the harder shot works better at longer range 40+ yards even with less velocity (less is more theory)

My question is: are average factory high velocity hunting loads still packed with soft shot? At the end of the day Brister does say that the softer shot performs great at shorter ranges as the pellet deformation opens up patterns faster which can be a good thing in some applications. Seems like if that is true it makes a good case for reloading, that is, if hard shot is available when you need it. He also went on to say that some of the plated shot available on the market is just soft shot with a coating over it and doesnt do any better than the soft shot. Is that the case with this bag of nickel shot I bought? Is it just soft shot with a light coating of nickel over it? Finally, where does one come by this hard shot such as the Italians use on live bird competition?

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

You pose an interesting question. Had you asked this prior to my retirement I would have taken some carefully chosen samples to work and done a microhardness test on them.

In Brister's book he shows a picture of a "comparative" hardness test using a pair of pliers and either one or two fingers for pressure against a standard of "hard" shot robbed from trap loads. You might try that if you have trap loads to rob.

In the BPI catalog #108 on page 22 and 23 they address this issue of shot hardness vs antimony content and also answer the question you asked. According to them the nickel plating was devised in Italy for live pigeon shooting and is hard. They also say that the even though the nickel plated shot has only the 2% antimony of softer shot, the nickel plating keeps penetration up and the softer core provides enegry transfer. Guess it boils down to whether or not you believe them.

Personally I have used their #5 1/2 nickel plated shot for pheasants for several years and it does seem to work if I do my part.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Unfortunately, I don't have any trap loads to rob for testing. But I will try and get some. Really goota wonder about that 2% antimony with nickel coating. Ive been using it and its working fine on chukar and quail. But I can't help but wonder if that nickel shot is exactly what Brister was talking about. Does anybody make hardshot with nickel or copper coating????

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

Brister was talking about hard shot patterning better than shoft shot. I would suppose that the only meaningful way to find out whether the nickel plated shot is "hard" would be by pattern testing your loads against the soft stuff like he did.

Decent pattern testing is a pain in the A-- and a lot of work. However, I have found it to produce all sorts of interesting results and suggest you do it and keep us posted as to the results. For instance, for my 3 16 ga guns, I invariably get better patterns with heavier loads than lighter ones - the opposite of what is usually reported. On the other hand, when I can reduce the open spots in the patterns than I should get better results in the field, and while that is difficult to "quantitatively" verify, it also seems to work in the field, so I use 1 1/8 oz shot loads in the 2 9/16" chambered old guns and 1 1/4 oz loads in the new one.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

When you say heavier load...is it heavier by both velocity and weight?
Did you use nickel when testing and at what yardage were the tests?
Because it is possible that the heavier load would perform better at shoter ranges, but the pattern at 40+ yards could be a different story. I was flabbergasted by how little velocity transferred into penetration power at longer ranges. What chokes you pattern tested will also be a question I would have. Full chokes, based upon all test Brister used, produced the highest velocity and penetration in every guage and load tested. What he ended up with as a final thought: Based upon extensive testing of penetration from 30-60 yards, muzzle velocity was found to be overrated, there being little difference in penetration (evenm with as much as 100FPS difference at muzzle) observed at the longer ranges where penetration becomes a problem.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Shot sold in bags is marked magnum or standard.I never saw any mention on the boxes of factory ammo as to the hardness of the shot----other than on some target loads.

Evening jig,
Remember that what makes shot harder also lightens it. Standard shot is 2-4% antimony and magnum or hard shot ranges at 7-8%. Nickel is indeed harder than lead, but far lighter. BP wasn't lying about the purpose of plated shot or how it works.
Load em and shoot if your inside 30yards, you or the birds won't know the difference. But when the shot exceeds 35 yards pay the price forr plated and you'll believe teh difference.
Charlie Wink

West coast magnum is the hardest shot available. Its good stuff and it does tighten up the pattern. I use it for all the loading I do even skeet where I know I don't need it.Some of the plated shot I have seen peels of with your fingernail.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Is Lawrence brand magnum shot any good? Just got a bag from BPI

I don't use it but I'm sure its good stuff.

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

As to the poster above who sez 'inside 30 yards the birds wont know the difference", but at longer range they will really shine (nickel).
According to Brister, the soft shot works very well inside 30 yards, which is why the industry started thinking they could save $$$ in mnufacturing costs by going with soft shot in most hunting loads. Where the nickel would pay off is beyond 30 yards. The softer shot, becasue of pellet deformation at (and after ingnition) spreads out faster, even with modern wads. It would seem a good strategy might be to go soft in the first barrel (open choke) and hard in the second Barrel

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

jig,

To answer your questions. Heavier load meant more shot. For me 1 1/8 oz loads pattern better than 1 oz loads. 1 oz loads pattern better than 3/4 oz loads. I used both lead and nickel plated shot for my tests. The range was the standarad 40 yards and the chokes on all guns was full. As I hunt upland game this is not what I want - I really would like I.C. and Mod. but that is what I always seem to get stuck with. Shot size was 7 1/2 and 6.

Bear in mind that the physics of firing a projectile with lousy aerodynamic shape such as a round ball is not a simple thing. While kinetic enegry equals 1/2Mass x Velocity squared which makes it seem that velocity is really important, the lousy aerodynamics makes it shed energy very quickly as the shape makes it slow down quickly. The term used is "drag". The faster the projectile goes, the quicker it loses velocity in a given time. The end result is that at a specific long shotgun distance, it all evens out and penetration, the end result we are looking for is not much different even though the shot actually starts out at a slightly higher initial velocity. Expressed in common terms "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"!

P

Member Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 524

Which is exactly why Brister sez the actual performance window for real full choked pattern is about 10 yards between 40-50yds. Wheras, mod chokes window of opportunity is more around 20-35 yards and IC from 10-35 yards which is why he sez IC is such a great way to go for the majority of upland hunters -if they can only have one choke. His wife referred to full choke as "you mean the one that goes to hell in a hurry" versus IC as the "that goes to crap over a longer period of time. Because when full choke's window of velocity closes - it closes very fast for the very reasons you cite above Popski. However, back to the original hypothesis, should you want tighter patterns, its always wise to choose harder shot. As Brister stated thast when using harder shot he found that he would get full choke patterns from mod chokes etc. Conversely, he states that with soft shot he would barely get modified choke performance from full choke...sometimes only IC performance. What I want to know now is whether the hardest shot is available to the public as a matter of course. Say, for example those trap and pigeon loads he would take the shot out of and transplant it into regular hunting loads to get better performance....can we buy shot as hard as that from our suppliers? Or, are we getting something different? Some have said that the nickel plated shot is just soft shot coated with nickel...what about hard shot coated with nickel...is that available anywhere?

Jig, for years now, I've been using Lawrence, West Coast, and Nazca magnum shot in all my reloads except for #9 skeet and my 5/8 ounce 28 ga quail loads. Trap loads require it in either 7-1/2 or 8 shot. all my 1 through 1-1/4 ounce 16 ga pheasant loads have it in sizes 6 through 4. FYI, Nazca shot imported from so. America, is about as hard if not harder than American magnum shot and is actually more uniform. I've proven this to my own satisfaction using the lab equipment where I work.

I used to use the BP nickel plated #6 shot imported from Italy in my own, one ounce mag, 28 ga. loads. However, I found out this stuff is about as soft as pure lead shot inside the rather brittle coating. I went over to copper plated Lawrence magnum shot for about the same cost and got much better results both in patterning and penetration in these #6 shot, 1225 FPS, 28 ga. mag loads.

Even though I call them a 28 ga magnum round for ID purposes, one ounce of #6 shot at 1225 FPS is hardly a magnum load and a bit marginal for pheasant at any range past 35 yards. However, the plating and truely hard shot inside seems to get past bone, fat, and feathers into the vitals better than plain #6 shot.

I've dumped more than a few good sized roosters at more than reasonable ranges with these loads out of a 28, So I know they work-- but not always once the birds get out past 35 yards. I've also had to chase a few down too. #6 shot does not always do the job with one shot on bigger birds, even in closer. Sometimes, its a crap shoot. Nothing is perfect-me included. However, I just love hunting with a 28, so if the occasional pheasant ends up on the agenda during a grouse hunt, So be it. Forgive me my sins. These big/little 28 ga loads dump late season grouse at longer ranges like they were pole axed.

However, I think plated shot is overkill in heavier 16 and 12 ga upland hunting loads. Mag shot is just as good where #5 and #4 shot can be used. Penetration is not a problem with these bigger pellets right out past 40 yards even on big tough pheasant.

With few exceptions, most ammo companies never did not offer premium upland loads normally before 1980. The reasoning was that upland game is shot on land where a fringed bird can be relocated and recovered either by another shot or by the dog. Upland birds are also not nearly as tough to kill as ducks and geese. A fringed duck or goose has a better than excellent chance of out swimming a retreiver. Plus, waterfowl are often taken at longer ranges than upland game over dogs. Most folks would not pay the extra price for a truely premium upland load like they would for waterfowling ammo. No market, no product.

Pheasant hunters also used to regularly use express waterfowling loads for long range shooting, so there was a certain amount of overlap. I think I still have a partial box of 3-3/4 dram, 1335 FPS, 12 ga, paper tubed, Remington Express #6, copper plated duck loads from the early 1960's tucked away somewhere in the black hole I call an attic. Laughing

I last used a few to shoot pheasant back in the 1980's out of my 12 ga Browning Superlight. They dropped those birds like lightning striking.

Some premium lead shot is still used in certain High velocity hunting ammo. Look for the ones that specifically use copper plated shot. You will be getting hard shot, at least in domestically made ammo. However, most domestic companies gave up loading premium lead shot in hunting ammo after non-toxic shot became the norm for waterfowling. Now, steel, bismouth, tungsten, tungsten matrix, and Heavishot fill that need. Lead shot is verboten.

Incidentally, in the last few years, registered trap score averages have fallen off a bit. folks have been shooting the readily available imported sport loads and domestic promo loads more than the premium trap loads. Thiese cheaper loads use either chilled or soft shot and the scores are showing it.

I will use bargain ammo for practice but never for registered scores. I reload all my own competition ammo with nothing but magnum shot I've actually tested for hardness with the labratory testing equipment where I work. I buy it in sub lots of at least 15 bags from one known production lot for this reason. My scores have stayed the same or improved. Hard shot does tighten and sweeten patterns--you betcha!!