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Greetings all. I've been a 16ga shooters since I bought my first good shotgun, after the customary 410 ss, it was a winchester model 12.

To my question, anyone know what year the 16ga 97pumps went to 2&3/4" chambers. I'm looking at one with a mfg. date of 1907. The owner says there is no designation for chamber length on the barrel. I want a 97 in 16ga but don't want to deal with the short chamber issue. Very Happy

Thanks for your help, Byron

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

pastorP: I don't know, but I know some guys who can surely help you; I've gone to this site for that type of info before:

www.winchestercollector.org is the site; when you get into it, you need to register, then hit "forum" and post your question. There are some Winchester EXPERTS on that site.

Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Posts: 76 Location: north Texas

Byron,
First Post here, and I can be of assistance! In Winchester's official book, "The History of Winchester Firearms 1866-1966", it states that 16ga. M/97 chambers were changed to 2 3/4 " in 1931 - also states that 16ga. was last listed in 1950 - so your prospective gun has a short chamber unless lengthened after-the-fact.

There's lots of great 2 1/2" 16ga. ammo out there, and MEC loaders are friendly to this setup.

xtm

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

pastorp,

Buy it! What a classic. Don't worry about the short chambers.

The RST 2 1/2" 16's are great shells and I'll dispose of the empties for you!

Jeff

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

I have 2 2 9/16" chambered guns; a 1904 Parker S x S, and a 1923 Mod 12 Winchester. They are my hunting guns. The Mod 12 and the Mod 97 are very similar and were created in part by the same design team. The barrel assy and receiver on both are similar if not identical, the guts are a bit different.

Be aware that there are no true 2 1/2" shells commercially available. They are all 2 9/16", and are marked on the box either 2 1/2" or 65mm. 65mm converts to 2 9/16" not 2 1/2". 2 1/2" is 63.5mm. Having said that, there are a bunch of 65mm length shells available, but length is not the true issue, although there are also 67mm length (2 5/8") shells out there and you don't want those. Fired hulls will not clear the ejection port of an unmodified Mod 97 or Mod 12, and I have a case of those from B & P to prove it.

The real issue is that modern loads realize higher pressures than the earlier loads, even those 2 3/4" ones from the early 1930's. Consequently, modern guns are proofed to higher pressures than the older ones were, even though Model 97's and 12's were proofed to substantial pressure levels. Also, Winchester had a bunch of problems with their early nickel steel barrels, both shotguns and rifles, and I would thus stay with low pressure loads. The suggestion to use RST's was a good one. 7/8 oz RST loads achieve 1100 fps at 5700 psi. 1 oz RST's go 1145 fps at 7600 psi. Those parameters worked great early in the century (last) and will work well now. There may be others in a similar regime, however, there are also some 65mm loads that are considerably hotter. Those I would stay away from.

However, having said all that, if you like the gun and the price is right, I wouldn't hesitate buying it. If you treat it well, it will treat you well, and those oldies have a very great smooth action.

By the way, reloading doesn't have to be expensive either. I have used a cheap Lee Load All for all my reloading for over 30 years now.

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

Forgot to put into the previous post. The Mod 12 also does not have a chamber length marking. In George Madis's book "The Winchester Model 12" he says that chamber length was not put on the barrel until they went to 2 3/4" chambers, somewhere around 1927 or 28.

Member Joined: 25 Jul 2006 Posts: 781

The last time I measured once fired RST 2 1/2" hulls they were 2 1/2" long.

I noticed it because I was cutting Remington hulls to 2 9/16 and they were longer than the RST's. I started cutting them to 2 1/2" so all my short black 16's would work on my loader with out adjusting the crimp.

Jeff

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

The concern I've had with short chambered pumps is whether they'll eject fired shells. I'm in the camp that believes a slightly shortened chamber doesn't radically increase pressure. I just want the shells to eject for follow-up shots. My M97 is SN 9018xx. It ejects just fine, so I shoot it and it makes empties for reloading just like the other guns. I did buy some RST's for a short chambered Sterlingworth, and if I'd have kept that gun I'd have had the chambers lengthened just for peace of mind. I can kid myself when I want to!

kgb

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

Jeff Mulliken,

Thank you for correcting me. I am in the process of buying some RST shells and queried them concerning hull length. According to RST they are indeed 2 1/2" long fired. I was unaware of RST until last month. Previous commercial loads from Fiocchi, Gamebore, Westley Richards, were all 65mm (2 9/16") even though the box said 2 1/2". B & P's were 67mm, though called 2 1/2". They actually are 2 5/8".

When you measure the fired RST's what number do you get? So far I have not had to modify my reloading equipment to handle the 2 9/16" length. Am I going to have to do this now? The fired Fiocchi's measured 2.545" - 2.558", the Gamebores and the Westley Richards measured 2.590 - 2.610"

Appreciate your help.

P