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Member Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 43 Location: iowa

Since I'm new to loading shotshells (been loading metalic for a couple years) I've gat a couple questions I hope someone can clear up. Is there a big difference in SP16 wads (which I can find everywhere) versus WAA16 wads (which are as scarce as hensteeth) Alliant only specifies WAA16 in there load data. Also, is there a great difference between 1 1/8oz & 1oz as far as recoil goes using Unique? Sorry to sound so stupid!!!!!

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

16 gauge data is outdated in ANY manual-----The AA can be subbed for the SP16--but they are almost nonexistenst.What hull/components do you have on hand----????As far as the recoil for the 1/8 of shot--there is another factor or two---velocity of the load ,type of gun-o/u, auto ,l.o.p.etc

Member Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 43 Location: iowa

I was considering the Fiocchi hull from BPI. I have Green Dot & unique powder. I also have some Federal Super X game load hulls. I will be shooting an Ithaca 37. Probably shooting just for fun mainly using #8 or #9 shot.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Buy a flat of Remmy game game loads and load with Unique and the SP16

Member Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 43 Location: iowa

Would you use the 1 1/8 loads or 1oz & use a filler card?

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

I use a 7/8 oz load with fillers/For a few bucks or less would send you some to try

Member Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 43 Location: iowa

I just talked a friend of mine & he found some cards that supposedly will work. Thanks for all the info!

Member Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 40 Location: California

To my knowledge the Win WAA16 wad was discontinued years ago and is unavailabe unless you have a stash. The Rem SP-16 is still around.

There are considerable differences between the two.

The WAA16 was a 1 oz wad made for the Win internally tapered hull, and as such is smaller in diamter than the SP16. Some complain about gas leakage around the wad when used with thin wall straight hulls. My sample measures 0.619" around the overpowder cup. If you measure from the top of the overpowder cup to the bottom of the shot cup on a WAA16 it measures 0.639".

The Rem SP-16 is a 1 to 1 1/8 oz load wad, useable up to 1 1/4 oz with selected powders and hulls. My samples measure about 0.632" over the overpowder cup so it fits better in a straight walled hull. From the top of the overpowder cup to the bottom of the shot cup it measures 0.488" so as you can see it has considerably more room for shot than does the WAA16. You can fill up the extra shot space with filler cards when using small shot loads.

The WAA16 was the equivalent to the also discontinued Rem R-16 which was also a 1 oz wad. Why newer loading manuals continue to provide recipes for these long unavailable wads mystifies me. From somewhere I seem to remember that someone had Remington make up some more R-16's and they had to buy a huge number of them. Whoever did that was then selling them in smaller lots to interested parties, but I don't remember the details. I always thought the R-16 was a better wad than the WAA16, but I didn't load many Win hulls either.

The other 16 ga wads I am familiar with are all european and are also 1 oz wads and even larger in diameter than the SP-16 and they are for use in the european thin straight walled hulls being imorted such as Fiocchi and Cheddite. They are sold by BPI and others.

Hope this helps you.

P

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Popski, that was me that talked Remington, (and talked, and talked and talked and talked, ad nauseum Laughing

) into selling us the R16 in bulk lots of 5K per carton through Recob's. Remington is still making and using this wad in their one ounce factory loads but stopped selling it as a componant over 10 years ago. I just pestered them enough to sell us nearly 300,000 of them in the first order alone. Many more have been sold since then via special order through Recob's.

I bought 15,000 myself in the first order. I'm pretty well set for now. I've not really paid too much attention to the subsequent orders. I have forgotten the exact bulk price and shipping but it worked out to about roughly$ 28.00 per thousand. Now, that hardly seems that expensive considering all the price hikes on wads in general this last year. When considering that price was for a universally useful 1 ounce and lighter 16 ga wad, it was a godsend to many of us 16 ga reloaders. This was at a time when one 250 count bag of either the R16 or the WW16AA wads was going for over $12.00--sometimes a lot more. I saw a few of these "deals" hit $16.00 per bag on EBAY. Plus, availability was spotty at best. I was down to my last 500 when the news came down we were going to get them after all. It was worth all the effort, believe me.

There was a certain backlash from all this. Some folks were disgrundled. Some saw the roughly $7.00 pr 250 count price as too high. The last ones they'd bought 10 years or more before were probably 1/4 of that price, but all wads had gone up since then. Others insisted the Gualandi wad was better due to its lower price in spite of its limited usefulness and less than adequate shot cup. Still others continued to pine for the long gone WW16AA wad. I say to each his own. I'll take what I can get that works best for me at the best price I can.

I believe certain "marketing types" were upset that their private stashes of R16 and WW16AA wads were suddenly worth a lot less. I saw some lots of either type being sold or actually given away after the R16 became available again. Too bad for the few folks who lost their leverage and good for most of us. I like the present market situation better. More folks are served more fairly and are no longer at the mercy of the scalpers Wink

Anyway, the R16 is useable in any hull if used wisely. I tuck a small but adequate square of tough plastic bag over the wad base of an R16 if using it in a Federal or Cheddite type hull. This seals the powder in well and the square just gets blown out the barrel with the wad. This same trick works for the Winchester wad too. For my bulk loads, I just stick with Remington hulls. Works for me.

For those of you who used to use the WW16AA wad, you can substitute an R16 wad directly for the same load but not the reverse. The WW16AA wad generates higher pressures. If you do, cut the powder by a full grain. This will reduce the peak pressure enough in most moderate loads to prevent trouble in a modern well made 16 ga gun.

Actually, that old "obsolete" 16 ga data has served me very well over the years. I have a small but adequate library of old shotshell reloading manuals going back to the 1960's. I've studied the data and have come up with some fine recipes. I've done so by comparing the interior capacity of some of the old, obsolete shells with the new ones available. If two shells both have a volume within 1/2 a percent, then most moderate pressure recipes for a similarly sized hull will work very well in them.

A good exaample of this is the old and new Federal 16 ga shells. These shells have stayed the same for 40 years. I use the Federal hull for a number of high performance hunting loads based on data going all the way back to 1970. Since I know the relative volume of the Federal is about 2.0% less than the Fiocchi or Cheddite hull, I know I'm safe if I load these last two with any moderate data for the Federal hull, and so on. I simply avoid any load data with top end pressures and never get in trouble.

To find a hull's volume, I simply cut a 1/2 dozen of identical shells off exactly square and at exactly 2-1/2 inches long. I then make certain they are round, and carefully fill each with water to the very top. I then weigh the water to the closest grain, average the results, and record it in a reloading log. Simple math gives me the relative volume percentage of any one shell to another. Once I know that, I can pick out a modern shell with the same or graeter volume as an older shell, find the best recipes for it out of old data, and load away. It works out 100% of the time if I avoid any loads much over 9500 lup or PSI.

My method works well for modern, well made 16 ga guns like a Citori or a model 37 pump. I use 9500 psi or lup as a guideline and not an absolute. I'm certain some of my recipes reach higher pressures, but never over SAAMI specs. The key is labratory level accuracy, acquired recorded knowledge or data base, and wise application of said data. Believe me, I'm very moderate to conservative when I reload. I treasure both my guns and my fingers.

If you do go w/ the Fiochii's be aware that they have larger primers, and when you reload the primers may fall out if you do not use Fiochii's or resize the pockets. I found out the hard way. Also they seem to get stuck in my pump, where all other hulls do not. They work fine in my SxS though.

Jim, I've had the same feeding and exrtaction problems with both the Fiocchi and the Cheddite hull. I found out the reason is the thin steel rim. Niether of these shells have a brass rim. Steel rims do not contract after peak pressures like brass nor do they resize as easily. I had to adjust my Grabber's mechanical resizing station tighter to bring the steel rims back to factory spec. This cured the problem easily. I just measured a couple of unfired factory loads, and adjusted the resizer to match the diameter within a thousandth or two.

If you are resizing on an old ring type sizing station like a MEC 600 JR, there are two cures. One is to have a 20 ga. ring machined bigger, but tighter than the present 16 ga. ring by about .010 - .015". You will also have to use a bit of case lube on the rim with this tighter ring. The factory ring was designed for brass and does not work well for steel rims. The other is to buy a 16 ga Supersizer or a 16 ga sizemaster or grabber press with the mechanical sizing station built in.

I also found that you have to now resize the stell rims back every time you reload them. Some brass rims can be reloaded a fair number of times without resizing them if they are used in the same gun. However, this is not true for steel rims. Since my Grabber has been readjusted and does this resizing automatically anyway, I do not have rim issues anymore, and my reloads fit any 16 ga gun I have without any problems, regardless of shell type. I'm good to go. hope this tip helps you.

PS: Cheddite, Winchester, and older CCI 209 primers are snug enough in the Fiocchi to work. However. Remington and Federal 209 primers are not and can be a problem. Try some of the former and see. FYI, I drop the powder charge a grain or more depending on relative weight if using Fiocchi 216 primers. They are very hot. the newer 215 primers are cooler and about the same as WIN, Remington, and CCI standard 209 primers.

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

16 GG CAUGHT MY MISTAKE-------THANKS ------tHE REM CAN BE SWITCHED FOR THE AA BUT NOT THE REVERSE Embarassed

Brain farts... we all have them. Rolling Eyes