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Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 5

I know this will be a simplistic question to most of you, but what receiver/frame size was the 16 gauge Model 12 Winchester built on? Did it have it's own size receiver or was it built on a 12 or 20 receiver? I've tried researching this issue and have had no luck.

Member Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 1545 Location: Michigan

I was told the 16 gauge is on the 20 gauge receiver. But a 16 gauge barrel will not fit a gun originally fitted for the 20 gauge. I have a 20 gauge that I need a barrel for. Was told it would be more trouble than it's worth to try and fit a 16 gauge barrel to it. Confused

I heard the same thing about the 16 being built on a 20 frame. To be more precise, I think it was built on a modifed 20 gauge frame. The earlier Ithaca 37 pumps were supposedly built on individual frame sizes.

However I have a post-# 855,000 16 ga. I measured it against a post 855,000 20 gauge gun. the frames are identical in exterior dimensions. This means at some date, Ithaca dropped one of the frame sizes and built the later 20 and 16 ga guns on the same frame for a while. I'm betting they dropped the original 20 frame in favor of the beefier 16 for liability reasons which were rapidly becoming part of the post-1962 gun manufacturing scene.

Browning builds the 16 ga Citori on a modified 20 ga. frame. They are about to build the 16 Ga. BPS on a modified 20 ga frame too. So does Merkel. Modern 20 ga frames tend to be overbuilt for the same liability reasons. So they can be used to make good 16 ga. frame sizes too. That, Gentlemen, is a good thing, a very good thing. Very Happy

Guest

Model 12 Winchesters were built on three frame sizes, Magnum for the 12 gauge 3", Standard 12 gauge and medium frame for 16, 20 and 28 gauge which all share a common frame size.

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

...and a trimmer, more durable and pointable 16 ga. pump than a Winchester Model 12 was never made...

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

But, the fact remains, it is the ONLY American pump shotgun with a published attrition rate in the Bluebook, and that rate is a whopping 33%.

So, a few of them broke, it would seem...
Best,
Ted

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

Ted, is that the true significance of the M12 being the only Bluebook selection for attrition? Not even a few M31's, M10's, M17's, M37's, Mossbergs, Savages, Marlins, etc. ever broke? It couldn't be that more folks are paying enough interest in (and cash on) the M12 and collectors might find the information offered in Bluebook of use. Maybe the author just thought it might be worth guesstimating a number for one gun and not any other.

Did you wish it to appear the author was pointing out that the M12 is an inferior gun and trying to imply that it breaks down so much in order that people should avoid it and buy/collect/shoot any of the other, better offerings out there? Guess that point could be read into that most useful of facts which you've shared here.

I've scavenged parts from a M12 that functioned just fine but was stripped with a wire wheel and had a severely deteriorated remaining finish. If only those bozos at Winchester had made a finish to last more than 60 years in any envioronment, to include saltwater, this might not have happened to that lump of metal and its well-meaning previous owner(s) would not have performed that particular brand of home gunsmithing.

Had it been a bolt action 12ga of any American brand, I'd have sent it off for complete restoration and upgrade. But, it was only another M12. There. I'm coming 'round! Much better.

You're welcome.

kgb

Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 5

Thanks for the help guys!

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

The only true significance was I got to throw a firecracker under Wolfchief's pet goat. Don't kill the messenger!
Best,
Ted

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

Look in the bluebook or any book for the relative values of an original 98% condition Model 12 and then compare that number to a Model 37 in the same condition; that will tell you all you need to know. The only "goat" is the one who can't own up to what the market has said for decades....

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Posts: 1257 Location: Nebraska

That's animule abuse!

And here I thought it was a generic lure cast into the pond for anyone to strike. Didn't know it had an intended target....

kgb

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

It's too bad that you, the other 5%, the "cognoscenti" were not enough to keep Ithaca solvent if its pump gun was so superior....the very fact that the Model 12 has been around since 1912, hasn't been sold new since the 1980's, and has been worked over, used and abused by some outrageous bozos and clods means it is bound to engender some repairs...but, I say again, the used gun market for Model 12's continues to appreciate, and, never mind who likes it or doesn't, this will remain so in future decades.

Guest

Like it or not the Model 12 is the gold standard by which all other repeating shotguns are measured.