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L Kenney
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:17 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 54
Location: San Francisco

Just bought a 16 ga Lightning Feather to provide a change of pace from my 16 ga nickel steel Model 12. I'd like to add a SK and another IC tube to the IC/M/F tubes provided with the Citori and am curious as to where to buy them. Also, I'm interested in 16/28 Guage Mates or the like and would appreciate informed opinions on what works best in Citoris.
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TJC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:58 pm  Reply with quote
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Try midwestgunworks.com for Browning choke tubes. They have about the best price for the Browning tubes.

If you want aftermarket tubes you might try mpcsports.com for either Briley or Trulock tubes. They offer free shipping to the lower 48 I believe.
I just ordered a couple of Trulock tubes from them. If they don't have what you want in stock, they call Trulock direct and have it shipped to you at no extra cost.

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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:52 am  Reply with quote
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If you're looking for something more open than IC, I'd suggest measuring a skeet tube, if possible, before you buy one. I bought one for a Citori 16 without measuring, discovered that it measured about .009 with my bore gauge, compared to .006 for the IC. You might try a Cylinder, but in a previous discussion of Citori 16 tubes on another board, seems I remember that someone said the cylinder had about as much constriction as the IC. My Mod measured .012, so I found that IC/M worked pretty well at skeet and Sporting in that gun. You will also find that the F is REALLY full, like .035 if I recall correctly.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:03 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, all 5 of my 16 ga. Browning Invector full tubes have about .042" constriction. That is ridiculously tight. I had two relieved to .030" which should be about a full 10% constriction and a nice full choke. I had two more taken to .023 for Imp. Modified, and one I kept for extra full.

I can't explain why some Invector 16 ga chokes vary so much. however, the guns were not made continuously from 1987 but in spread out lots. Perhaps Miroku has had several different souces for their tubes and specs have been bandied around.

My two Gr I 28" lightnings, an '87 and an '88, have .669-670 bores. so does my 1994 grade III. I have acquired about 13-14 tubes for them but they are all pre- 1994. My cyl tube is a true cyl at .670, my three skeet tubes have .003-004" constriction. The IC tubes all have 007-008" and the mods have .016-.017.. Is it possible that the special order post 1989 guns were ordered with different sized tubes by the wholesalers?
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:38 am  Reply with quote
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Guy, interesting about the earlier 16ga Invectors. I've talked to a couple other guys that measured the tubes that came with their recently-acquired Citori 16's, and they found the same thing I did: weird measurements. But frankly, other than that ridiculous full, I didn't think it was all that much of a problem. A couple of the IC's, at .006 or so, would probably work out fine for skeet, most grouse & woodcock shooting, etc.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:31 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, I have no doubt that the day of the Citori is over. Miroku's attention to detail has slipped noticably in the last few years. I've seen to same thing with other companies and other guns as they near the end of production of a design. Its like the people making them lose interest and want to move on to the next model. I suppose that is simply human nature. Also, all the accumulated "iffy' parts get pressed into service as the shelves get cleared of inventory

Winchester did it with the 101 guns. Some of the last special issue, high end models were super good (not all), but the run of the mill models suffered from poor quality control. You had to really be sharp, and pick and choose to get a right one. I see this with the Citori now. I'm just happy all of my Citoris are "right ones" from the gun's heyday. It is still one of the true gun bargains, but its time has apparently passed.

Aside from that, .005- .008 points of choke have always been the most useful, even in the little .410 within its rather short useful range. People can't seem to face the fact that shotguns are not rifles, and best serve inside 30-35 yards.


Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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L Kenney
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:39 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 54
Location: San Francisco

Thanks for the help. I won't have the gun or the tubes until Saturday, when I'll measure them then and report back. Midwest Gun Works does stock 16 ga Invector choke tubes at $15 each, and Trulock extended tubes are available at $31.50 each from MPC Sports: spendy, but maybe a way of getting better workmanship.
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justchris
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:39 am  Reply with quote
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Briley.com has the best selection of choke tubes for the 16 ga. Invector i've found. Regular and extended, the extended are a little pricey but the craftsmanship is superb! (I just picked up a couple myself.)
And they have Cylinder - Xtra Full and everything in between.

Browning makes their own gauge reducers, called Lil' Skeeters and Cabelas
carries them in 16- 20, 16- 28 and 16-410 for about $32.99 a pair.

I bought a 16ga. Lightning Feather last year and it is my favorite gun now, (I must have gotten a good one.)
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TJC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:51 am  Reply with quote
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justchris,
Picked one of those up myself. Great gun. I use it for upland and even used it for Sporting Clays last week. It worked fine but the nut behind the trigger didn't do his part so well. LOL

Only thing I wish I could have changed was to get 26" barrels instead of the 28" I got.

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Cahoonje
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:03 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Florida

the invector plus tubes for my Citori 12 ga do not measure consisitently and pattern even worse. Even Hastings makes better chokes in my opinion. My favorite chokes are Briley. Can not say enough good things about theirs. Second favorite is Seminole. Do not worry about the cost. buy quality tubes and you will not regret it. Nothing worse than to buy a choke tube and wind up not using it because it patterns poorly.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:37 am  Reply with quote
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Don't get me wrong guys, god, the devil and everyone in between knows I love my 16 ga. citoris. I own four of them. That should count for something. However, if you've got a good one, hang on to it. If you plan to buy new, look very carefully at it before you plunk down the money. They ain't making them anymore so I'm told. So getting a repacement from Browning is very unlikely.

The most important thing is be sure the bores are both looking at the same place and the tubes are bored in straight. Everything else can be fixed except that. If the two barrels look cockeyed to you, pass on that one and find another. However, 90% are good to go.

As far as 26 vs. 28 inch barrels, I got 2 of each. At the skeet range, I'll take the 28" guns every time. For doves and pass shooting, the same. For typical upland hunting, either works as well. However, I reach for the 28" models because they do swing smoother for me. I've balanced each one to my own preference by removing a little wood from the inside of the butt or adding a little lead to it if need be. I think the balance is more important than the weight difference. I can't really tell any difference between a 6-1/2 lb. gun and a 6-3/4 pounder if they both balance well between my hands and come up flat and even to the mark. Any gun lighter than 6-1/4 lbs. doesn't swing too well for me. but that is just me. Each to his own.

Quality choke tubes are a must. They have to relate in size to the bores. I measure the bore first. then I measure the choke and put the points of reduction on the side with an engraving tool. I don't pay to much attention to what the tube is supposed to be according its factory markings. If it is, fine, if it ain't, then a least I know what it actually is and either use it, lose it, or have it reamed to fit.

I've sent a bunch of bad ones back to Browning. They've always sent a replacement without an arguement. They can be a bit slow on the return date, but they still are among the best companies to deal with. Remington should go tto school on them.
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LiverTick
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:35 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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If I'm not mistaken, I thought Briley was making the Browning OEM tubes that came with the recent-vintage Citori 16's. Or was it Carlson?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:12 am  Reply with quote
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I'm sure Miroku sources out a lot of the parts that go into the Citori like choke tubes. I know some parts are made right here in the USA or have in past years. Its common practice across the globe now. Briley may or may not make the premium line of Browning's choke tubes.

However, Briley also souces out stuff too. Some of their stuff is made across the Rio Grande. They don't want you to know this , but it is common practice. I've had Briley tubes that were not right and had to be replaced. It took a bit to convince them that there was a problem. however, I was polite but persistant. They finally realized they were in error and quickly fixed the problem. If fact once they realized the truth of the matter, they fell all over themselves trying to please me. I ended up ahead of the curve on that one, and they got some valuable input which helped them along. It was a win/win situation in the end.

My point is simply this. It is up to us the buyer to get out the mike and check them. We are the ones who will use them, so we should be the ones to know exactly what we have. If there is a problem, then the company we bought them from usually will replace the article. I've found that most companies appreciate a knowledgable customer who tactfully requests a replacement. The input helps them do a better job.

The key words here are tact and knowledge. Getting our undies in a bunch and getting smart a** with the service agent doesn't cut it. I've been buying and shooting guns for most of my life now. I've had a few perfect ones, a lot of ones that needed a minor fix here and there, and a few wrongos that needed to be replaced entirely. In almost every case, the problem was solved.

However, I made sure I was dead on to the problem before I asked for a repair or replacement. There is nothing more frustrating to a service agent than someone who is asking for a repair, who doesn't have a clue what is wrong, and who gets hostile because the poor agent doesn't understand what the guy wants.

Over the years, I've found that 99% of the service and repair people want you to be happy with their products. They appreciate it when they are treated in a polite and friendly way, and will go the distance to see that your problem is fixed.
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LiverTick
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:00 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 131
Location: The Great Lakes State

Is the measurement of constriction a reliable indicator of the amount of choke down-range? I would think (and I am very uneducated about this) that there are too many variables in play -- weight of shot charge, weight of powder charge, shot size come to mind, plus the inherent variability between individual loaded shells -- that constriction alone would not necessarily predict the outcome. Can someone shed some light on this for me, please?
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:04 am  Reply with quote
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You are right. There are too many variables. Choke designation is merely a general guideline. First, you have to establish what the bore diameter is in your gun. It must be measured. Then you will be able to establish exactly how much constriction your chokes are giving.

Then you can pick a certain choke tube and a shell and pattern the load to see what you are getting on the pattern sheet. That will tell you more than any other way what you are getting at the various distances you wish to check.

Some of the factors that affect shell preformance are velocity, pressure, powder burn rate, primer brisance, pellet size, pellet hardness (resistance to deformity), wad type, length of the forcing cone, choke tube taper length, internal shape, and surface condition, bore condition, and even atmospherics. About the only thing that doesn't is how you hold your mouth when you fire the load.

As you reload and learn to juggle these factors around, you will come to understand how each works. However, the most important things to focus on are a safe shell operating pressure for your gun, pellet size for the best results on your chosen target at the ranges you intend to shoot, and enough velocity to do the job. Plus, learning to pick and use the different componants to give you a well loaded shell with a good firm crimp of proper depth.

Get a couple or three good shotshell reloading manuals, read them through, and use the recipes they give you. Contact the various powder manufacturers for their free handbooks or booklets and read them. Keep asking good questions. Also, join the reloading group here in this site. The folks there will be a big help in loading for a 16 ga..

Eventually, you will come up with some loads that are perfect for your gun and your intended use. It takes time, effort, study, and practice. Its a great pastime too. Enjoy.
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