16ga.com ~ View topic - shot size- late season sharptail/pheasant?

I'm a fairly new 16 ga. shooter and new to this forum. I have a question for you more experienced members. Often near the end of the season here in Saskatchewan I find the sharptails very skittish and the only shots available are at rapidly departing birds at. about 45-50 yds. I don't shoot if they're past that. Conditions are tough. Daytime temperature is usually at about freezing, and it's often windy. I know that we shouldn't try to make the 16 into a "magnum" but please share your thoughts.... I haven't done much patterning yet, but it seems to me I'd lean towards #5 shot and a 1-1/8 oz load starting at about 1250-1300 fps and IM /Full choke. Where is the balance between pellets in the pattern and hitting power per pellet? Are 4's too big? I assume 1-1/4 oz. of shot is just too much to be a real benefit in this bore size without deformed pellets and a long shot string, etc. Has this been your experience?

*Last edited by brdhnt on Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total*

I would recommend the Fiocchi 'Golden Pheasant' load. 1 1/8th ounce of
nickel plated # 5's at 1300 FPS. I have used it on late season pheasants
with good success. Last year in Kansas in January we were hunting in about
a 30-mph wind and below zero wind chill. The birds were getting up and catching the wind and shots were in the 40 yard range. I used these with
a modified choke tube and when I remembered to lead the birdsthe lenght of a railroad car, they hit the ground dead!

Good Hunitng!
TB
________
R60/2

Longwalker..

.. I was in a local sporting goods store the other day in Texas (read no pheasants around here) and they had 16 gauge ammo of your description above; they were Remington "Express" ..pretty warm as I recall. Kinda' funny as I was explaining to the clerk that nobody would want that kinda' load around here.... Rolling Eyes

That seems like an extreme range for most anything that is "rapidly" deploying..I'd be curious what those that know say, too. Likely only the pattern board will tell..but my instincts tell me your load is on the right track

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

LW, 5's are a good shot size for pheasants, but you have to be careful because of pellet count (and therefore pattern density) with the 16. With 1 1/8 oz, you're under 200 pellets, which is over 10% less than you have in an ounce of 6's. AT 50 yards, you're lucky if even a full choke will pattern 50%, which gives you fewer than 100 pellets in a 30" circle. Getting pretty thin, I'd say. For sharps, which I've never found particularly hard to kill (although almost all my hunting for them has been early in the season), I think you'd be better off with 1 1/8 oz of 6's. Paired with a tight choke, you might still be able to drop a sharp at 50 yard with that load. Pheasants at 50 yards . . . a study I recently read shows that wounding and loss rates go up very significantly when you knock down pheasants beyond 40 yards, and that matches up very closely with my own experience on ringnecks. I would not stretch a 16 to take a 50 yard shot at a rooster with any load, unless he's already hit and you're trying to finish him off.

Amen to that Larry. I've learned through to years that any pheasant that gets up outside of 30 yards is best marked down and tried for again or saved for another day. The wild birds can leap six feet straight up and cover ten yards about as fast as the best wing shots can mount, point and shoot with any accuracy. That puts the bird at the maximum distance of 40 yards inside of two seconds. Unless you are a remarkably quick and deadly shot, I recommend making your max distance for any game bird at 25 yards from point of flush in open cover, and much closer in the thicker stuff-- the closer, the better for you and the bird. In fact, I'd wager that 90% of all cleanly killed game birds are taken inside 25-30 yards or closer. Past that point, the percentage of cripples and birds that need a finisher goes up very quickly. past 35 yards, too many birds are fringed and escape to suffer long and agonized deaths. Thats not good hunting practice.

Usually, 1 oz. of hard #6 shot or even 7/8 oz. of hard #7 pigeon shot at 1250-1300 FPS shot will kill any well hit early season bird inside 30-35 yds. Cylinder and skeet chokes will do the job very well. Later, as the season lengthens and the birds toughen and smarten up, 1-1/8 oz. of hard #6 at max FPS (1300) handles 90% of any shot I'm willing to take. Again, I try to limit the shot distance to inside 40 yards and choke the gun accordingly, often skeet and improved cylinder is best. I've found that #5 shot at 1250- 1300 FPS is very hard hitting and effective for tough older birds later in the season. There, I prefer a 1-1/4 oz. handload at 1275 FPS give or take 10 FPS out of an improved cylinder choke or modified at the tightest in the top barrel. Again, I also will not shoot at birds beyond 40 yards.

However, for the really heavily plummaged late season birds, I like 1-1/4 oz of #4 hard shot inside 40 yards. Those #4 pellets will hold onto their energy through the very cold dense air and plow through feather and bone to bring even the heaviest cock bird down with authority. In my Citori, they pattern beautifully out of a modified tube and throw a nice center core with a well filled outer ring for a fine 24" diameter killing pattern.

Forget the 30 inch pattern stuff. It doesn't work in trap and it won't reliably kill game birds either. It is only useful as a benchmark for determining shot percentages in shells and choke designs at forty yards. No shot string will reliably kill if it is not well centered. If a shooter cannot reliably place the inner 24" circle of his shot string on target at least 75% of the time, that shooter needs to either have his gun refitted to him, needs to shoot more practice target, or both. there is simply no other way to become a solid wing shot. Again, we owe it to the birds to each other kill as cleanly as is humanly possible.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

The problem with pheasants, especially if you don't hunt them a lot, is that they're bigger than any other upland bird you're likely to shoot, the shots are mostly in relatively open cover, and there's a significant temptation to stretch your shots a lot farther than you should. They are also harder to kill (although easier for most people to hit) when going straight away or at a very shallow angle. The crossing birds are harder for most people to hit, but they are much easier to kill because the bird's vitals are far more exposed.

If you find yourself and your 16 somewhere that nontox is required, the Kent Tungsten Matrix 1 1/4 oz load of 5's is a very good one.

Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 25 Location: Somerset County, NJ

Here in NJ, an ounce of 7's in the first barrel and an ounce of 6's in the second will suffice for the "Rockford Rockets" that the State stocks. However, when you get to where the real birds are, the Dakotas and upper Mississippi River valley, it is time for the big stuff. When I hunt western Minnesota, I drop down to an ounce of nickle plated 6's in the first barrels and an ounce of nickle plated 5's in the second. Being an avid target shooter, I have never been convinced of the need for "magnum" loads. That and the fact that my LC Smith 16's won't take the abuse from artillery loads have made me a one ounce shooter. An ounce of 5's or 6's at 1200 fps will kill cleanly at 40 yards with a full choke when guided by a capable shooter. I know, Midwestern pheasants are a lot tougher than any clay targets, but a shot to the head will kill them just as efficiently. When I don't make that perfect shot and just knock them down, there are two eager Llewellin Setters with me just waiting for the chance hunt them down and bring them back.

JCM

JC, I agree with nearly everything you say except for one. I don't like full choke tubes when hunting. The reason is I like to eat pheasant. I find that too much choke ruins too many birds. I also am not one to try to hold off a little as I've heard others try to do to avoid ruining the bird for the table. I try for the forward half of the bird everytime I can and focus on the head.
However, a well centered straightaway shot with a full choke will ruin a bird. Thats why I prefer a more open choke and a tad more shot in the bigger sizes in the later season.

Larry pointed out that any shot string with less than 200 pellets is a bit too thin. I have found that to be very true. 7/8 ounce of #7 has a bit over 200 pellets and patterns beautifully out of a cylinder tube to 30 yards which is about max range for pheasant with these smaller pellets. They are not that reliable later on or further out due to lack of penetration through the feathers. One oz. of #6 also has about 200 and a tad pellets. They kill very well out to 35-37 yards. However, I've had some well hit birds keep going if shot past that distance. 40 yards on a pheasant with 6's is stretching it unless centered in the head and neck. You can't plan for that option.

#5 needs at least 1-1/8 ounces to be close enought to the 200 mark. I use a 1-1/4 ounce bar in my Mec that actually throws a bit light. it works well enough and I get about 215-220 pellets per load. # 5's are deadly all the way out to 40 yards. However, a bird hit inside 25 yards with these babies from a full choke is bird burger, period. They tend to pattern very tight in the center ring, especially with the slower powders I use in my heavier loads. However, a skeet choke lets them open up a little quicker and a modified tube is all I've ever needed even at 40 yards, my self imposed limit.

I weigh all my #4 loads to get about 190 pellets which is a bit over 1-1/4 ounces. It makes for a slower load, but those big #4's will penetrate through a bird all the way out at 40 yards like nothing else. Three or four of these babies through the vitals brings them down hard and doesn't tear them up. Plus, the #4's will reach the vitals all the way from the tail end out at 40 yards like no other suitable 16 ga. pellet size will including #5's. Those late season birds are too few and too far apart to risk losing to poor pellet performance. Besides, Christmas pheasant is the best tasting of all in my opinion.

However, the late season swamp birds I often encounter in Rhode Island rarely flush wild. So its back to one oz. of #6 in an improved cylinder barrel in the top tube and 7/8 of # 7 in a skeet or cylinder tube for the first shot. I'm usually after grouse then and the pheasant are a bonus bird. That combo works for both birds very well in the swamps, because I usually will be shooting well inside thirty yards anyway.

Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 25 Location: Somerset County, NJ

16GG,

We are in agreement more than you realize. One Smith is choked at .008 and .018, the other at .005 and .013, so I'm not loading the pattern up close. I addressed my remark about full choke to mean that you CAN kill effectively at 40 yards if necessary. However, I do feel comfortable with a long shot and my loads. We run various games at my trap club, but have shoot-offs at a point where we're 40 yards behind the house at call. On a good night, any number of us can still break 3 out of 5 with a 12 gauge, factory load of 7 1/2's on shots averaging 60/65 yards. I do it with a .033 choke and 1 ounce loads. It's not a pheasant or sharpie, but it certainly give one an eye for distance and lead.

JCM

Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Omaha

I lived in South Dakota for 10 years. Used mostly a 12 but at times a 16 also. There the general rule of thumb is #6 copper plated in a mod early and #5or 4 for late season with a full choke. The over hitting issue is void because a wild bird is almost never close enough to crush with the tighter pattern late in the season. Of course I'm talking wild birds here and not released birds.

I hear you Driggy. However, big pellets almost always need less actual choke to pattern well. Plus, I'm willing to bet a dollar on a donut that the average one shot kill in South Dakota is well inside 40 yards, even in the late season. I've witnessed easily over a thousand birds killed in my years in the field. I can't tell you the many times I've heard guys I've just seen down a bird at 30 yards and swear it was over 40. They aren't lying, or even stretching it, they actually believe the shot was that long. I've frequently overestimated the distance in the past myself only to step it off after deducting the post hit drift of a dying bird and finding I was a lot closer to thirty when the shot hit the meat. It is human nature. Plus, those birds get small real fast to our eyes if they flush close, and take us unprepared--especially against blue sky. However, 40 yards at a pheasant is still a long shot and 50 is a "Hail Mary" attempt in my book with a 16. I don't feel right trying it based on my own miserable average past 40 yards.

JC, I've shot Annie Oakleys too. Its a great way to break the monotony of 16 yard singles. It's amazing to watch those clays come apart out at hell and gone distances. However, we don't puff them out there either, and there are a lot of "golden BB" breaks too. However, it is great fun to shoot and then witness that lagtime between shot and broken clay. It teaches you to keep wood on wood too. Its definately full choke shooting. 27 yards seems easy after a couple of those long range ego busters. Keep them busting my friend--puff balls all.

Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 39 Location: nebraska

I’m certainly no expert on pheasant hunting even though I’ve been at it over 40 years now. Just about the time I get something figured out either I change things cause I’m bored or I found out what I thought was fact was a fluke.

Several years back I went from a 12 gauge to a 20 and my kill ratio on pheasants when way up. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the 20 being an inherently more lethal pheasant weapon. Rather I think I shoot it better and since I’m shooting a lighter gauge I don’t push the range. If that bird is at 40 yards I don’t bother to shoot.

I’ve shot a lot of wild birds, early in the season, with 71/2 in the bottom barrel and 6s in the top. I’m choked either skeet and improved or improved and light mod and I try to get on them fast and shoot.

Of course now that I’ve had good luck with that for a couple of years I’m changing things up with the 16 gauge mod. 12. Mine is opened to a light modified and I’ll probably put a 71/2 in the tube for the first shot followed by a couple of 6s.

Late in the season I’ve been going to 5s with the 20 but I still pass on the long shots. The 12 gauge guys give me some grief but its all in good fun. Usually there is a part of them that’s convinced I’m crazy for hunting with anything but a 12. If they only knew....... Cool

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

NE16, like you, I live in pheasant country (Iowa) and have been at it for a few decades. Killed them as a kid with a .410 single, but back then I was not above sniping them out the car window, on the sit. But it did make me quick on the draw when I had a surprise flush--and I was hunting dogless.

The reason you shoot the 20 better might be something as simple as gun fit, or it might be weight, or it might be a combination of the two. I've killed way more pheasants with a 16 than with anything else. I think it has enough firepower (I have some of the 1 1/4 oz Federals, but seldom use them--usually just an ounce or a bit more, with maybe 1 1/8 in the tight barrel), but the lighter weight allows the shooter to get on target quicker, especially at the end of a long day afield.

I've tried 7 1/2's on pheasants and have killed a fair number, my main complaint being that I end up with too many pellets in the meat. I really like 7's for first barrel shots over pointing dogs, rarely find I need anything bigger than 6's, although I sometimes go to 5's for late season birds (especially in the tight barrel) for a little extra penetration and insurance.

16ga Model 12's have taken a lot of roosters out this way, as have Sweet 16's.

I agree with you 100 and 10 percent there Larry. Most 16 or 20 gauge guns weight between 6 and 7 lbs. That weight range is almost if not perfectly ideal. The gun is light enough to be quick and heavy enough to swing well for the average hunter.

Sure, some very small folks or some very big ones might need a lighter or heavier gun as well as a customized stock to fit well. however, nearly all modern gun makers have arrived at the best stock dimensions to fit most average sized and built folks close enough so the guns shoot fairly well if the length of pull is not way off for them. This places the average persons cheek on the stock and his or her eye at the right height over the rib for good pointing. Even with a LOP adjustment, the average stock works because this puts the cheek close to if not dead on the sweet spot of the stock.

Gun gauge is secondary to fit and handling. If your gun does not fit you, kicks too hard and make you lift your head off the stock, or is too heavy for easy quick handling, your shooting will suffer. A bird hit in the vitals with enough pellets of any sized shot that penetrates them is dead as dead can be.

Like you, I've killed pheasant with every standard gauge from .410 to 12. However, 16 is my favorite because it has the capacity to handle 3/4 to 1-1/4 ounces of shot and #9 to #4 very well in a package that lets me get on them fast an doesn't cause my arms to drag after a day in the field. It is the most versatile and compfortable gauge there is for all upland hunting. But then, you know that too.

Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Northeast Ohio

NE16... I noticed you have a model 12 opened to light modified. How many thousandths consrtictions is it? I have one marked mod. which is .009 and I'm pretty certain it's factory original. A close friend has one the same(mod. at .009) which likely has not been altered either. Do you know what yours measured from the factory and what it is now that you have it at light mod.? I've been told by Winchester that .009 is within factory original range for modified in this gun but I'm curious what others have been. A smoth said it's more like skeet two. I've yet to pattern it but it seems versatile enough on the skeet range ( I tend to ride my targets a bit with low gun and take farther than average shots) regardless of target distance. So far I've only gotten to take a few dove with it but it seems ok. Just curious what others think. I know the pattern board is the best barimeter but don't know how soon I'll get to it. Thanks. Grouse Gunner.