16ga.com ~ View topic - shot size- late season sharptail/pheasant?

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

GG, like you said it's the pattern board that counts. However, from an old chart on Winchesters that I have, .009 would be VERY light modified. .016 was mod in a Winchester 16; .007 was IC. But you can probably get it to shoot honest mod patterns with the right modern loads.

your smith is right. That choke is Skeet II, skeet out, or quarter choke. all the same thing. Its not a bad one either for a fixed choke gun. With finer shot under #6, it will act more like improved cylinder, with heavier shot like 5 or 4, modified. A well designed spreader load of #8 or 7-1/2 shot like with a polychoke spreader insert, an x card insert, or stacked shot with 28 ga. .030" card wads inserted every third of the column will do for close quail and even first shot on early season pheasant with 1 oz of #7 pigeon shot.

Incidently, I just learned a trick from an old time grouse hunter whose favorite 16 ga gun was a sawed off 24" barreled Ithaca 37 with no choke. His favorite trick was to take a Remington R1 or SP-16 wad and wrap some scotch tape about a tad less than half way up the petals of the wad. He claimed the wad would stay with the shot column a little further, open slower, and give him good modified patterns out of his gun. I'll bet it would work too. This guy is no fool or BS artist.

It seems to me I remember reading about something similar used in the old percussion lock muzzle loading shotgun days prior to 1870 or so. They used charges of cased shot that was put up in stout paper, foil, or brass wire containers that were color coded to open at various distances, the longest out to past 80 yards for long range waterfowling. Essentially, these were the forrunners of our modern day plastic shot cupped wads. Seems that nothing under the sun is really new, just rediscovered.

which leads me to another point. most shotguns shoot much tighter and fuller patterns with a well designed shot cup. My favorite singles trap load is based on a Remington TGT wad and 1 oz. of #8 shot at about 1150 FPS. It is extremely comfortable to shoot and crushes clay birds out to 40 yards with a modified choke. Reason, the TGT holds 1 oz. of #8 shot completely inside the cup. nothing is exposed to bore scrub. The wad also cushions the shot on setback very well during ignition due to the longer collapsable spacer section.

The modern wad is the main reason I advocate less choke than seems conventional, especially in the older, more tightly choked guns.

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 62

I have again read the above comments with interest. I too like the #5 shot late in the season. It gives more striking energy on those heavily feathered, winter birds. But a word of caution (and common sense) here. Whenever a hunter starts shooting at ringnecks (or sharptails) beyond 40 yards the odds are against him/her. Too many hunters don't really have an idea how far 40 yards is visually. Try walking or measuring it off and then putting a life-like siloutte of a game bird out there. When you go back to square one you will be shocked just how small it looks -- heck its not all that easy to see for some shooters. So when I hear of hunters talking about 45-50-55-60 yard shots I cringe a bit. If you have to take shots at the 40-45 yard range you should probably have Improved Modified rather than just modified choke, larger shot sizes like #5 or even #4 (with high antimony content), and have practiced on the trap range from a lower gun position so as to be in the groove for long shots. Having said that, I go back to what I indicated earlier, that the average hunter, the average shot, will not do well on shots beyond 40 yards regardless of the load, the gun, or the gauge. For what it is worth, the late Jack O'Connor reached that same conclusion some four decades ago. Pheasant hunting hasn't changed that much since then.

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

Good points, kb. Long shots, IMO, are especially questionable on straightaway or very shallow angle birds, because you're pushing the shot through a lot of feathers (especially on late season survivors), backbone, fat, gizzard, etc. You may drop a leg or bust a wing, but it's tough to make a killing shot on an outgoer beyond 40 yards. Crossers are easier to kill because the vitals are far more exposed, but most people have more trouble hitting those shots. You get that long profile with 1 1/2-2 feet of tail, and the tendency is to underlead the birds.

Its funny how experience among serious shooters tend to guide them to the same conclusions. I reached the same conclusion years ago. I've posted several times that my personal range limit is about 40 yards. Yes, I've hit birds beyond that rangw out to past 50 yards. No, I have not killed them all cleanly. I've chased my share down. I stopped trying it. Its foolish and cruel.

We learn as we go, especially those of us who's family did not have a long established hunting heritage. I did not pick up the shotgun until I was well into my 20's. My dad was a WWII DAV. He was very much against guns in the house. However, breeding tells. I'm part NA from my mother's side, so I was hunting from the pure force of instinct with a bow from the time I was in grade school.

However, I had to seek out knowledge and lore where ever I found it. So much of it was gleaned from those honest and truely experienced outdoor sports writers. Jack O'Conner was tops among them. He still is in my book. However, reading about it still requires seeing it in one's own experience.

We have lost much valuable lore with the wane of our hunting heritage. That is the main reason I post so frequently here. I wish to spread that knowledge and lore which both reading and experience have taught me. It is simply enlightened self-interest. If I do not become part of the force that preserves our hunting rights, then I will be part of the force that destroys it. Without hunting and fishing too, my life would become meaningless. It is a major part of what I am, so ingrained that without it, I could not continue to live. It would be like trying to exist without a heart to pump blood through my vanes.

Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2 Location: nebraska

Longwalker: What my personal choice is in an over under would be, 7.5 shot in the lower barrel (improved cylinder) 6 shot upper (modified).
Also a well trained bird dog of any breed seems to help.

Have fun and good hunting

Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 787 Location: Indiana

I've got to agree with kb and Larry on this issue. I use a flushing dog (Golden) and the great most of my shots are well within 25 yards because of the heavy weeds/reed canarygrass/cattails/horseweeds I hunt. The tightest choke I ever use is modified in the 2nd barrel of a SxS or my Model 12's and mostly IC in my Super Black Eagle. The shotgun is a SHORT RANGE shooter !! I use 1 oz. of 5's or 6's in the 20 gauges and 1 1/8 oz. of 5's in the 16's and 12 gauges.
With these combos, I get every bird I deserve to. Very seldom will I attempt a 40 yard shot. I just hate to lose a bird, it spoils the day for me.....

QR, you would do better to up the 7-1/2 shot to # 7. which is about the smallest I've found to be reliable on pheasant, and then only on close in, early season birds and hens where they are legal. I've killed many pheasant with 7-1/2 but have had to chase down too many to say it is truely effective. I've stopped using it as a regular load. However, I've also shot pheasant while grouse hunting. There, I will use 7-1/2 if the bird gets up close. I use a skeet tube down and an improved cyl. up for nearly all grouse hunting. 3/4 oz. of 7-1/2 at 1275-1300 FPS will drop a well hit pheasant 90% of the time, and grouse nearly every time, if you hit them at all-- which can be very challenging on these little grey ghosts. however, I prefer #6 and up for regular pheasant hunting. It plain kills them much better with less shot up meat.

Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 39 Location: nebraska

Sorry for not replying sooner but that pesky work thing has been interfering with my hobbies.

In short I have no idea what the constriction is on my M12. It came from the factory as a full choke and since I wanted to use it for hunting and am not a full choke fan I had it opened up by Wright’s. I told him to take it to light mod. I know, I probably should have been more specific but I wasn’t. In fact I’m not really sure how to check the constriction………..you are all much more knowledgeable than I am in that area.

I’ve used the shotgun on doves and it worked pretty well for me when I did my part. At the end of the month we’ll see how it does on pheasants.

This is an interesting thread in that a lot of you share some of my basic philosophy about hunting pheasants in that you limit your shots to specific distances. I personally like to pick my shots rather than shooting at each and every bird that flushes regardless of distance.

I’m going to start out this year with a load of 71/2 in the chamber and a couple of 6s in the magazine of the M12. I think at the beginning of the season this might be a workable combination. Later on I’ll go to 6s and 5s.

NE16, its not that hard to measure your gun's choke or have it done. You simply measure the bore diameter a few inches ahead of the chamber, then measure the smallest diameter of the choke or choke tube. Subtract, and you have the number of points or thousanths of an inch difference (same thing), and that will be the amount of choke or that gun. If you are limited to a fixed choke, spreader loads or a taped wad will give you a more or less open pattern.

However, shooting well and picking your shots is both the best tactic and very commendable on your part.

Thanks for all the replies! The question that started this string was my first post to this forum and I'm impressed with the quality of the discussion. It's nice to learn that this group is made up of committed, responsible hunters and not just shooters! I must agree with the comments from all who said more than 40 yd is usually too far. My Pudelpointer loves his work, but a good dog is not a subsitute for restraint when a fine bird may be only wounded by taking a marginal shot.

Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 39 Location: nebraska

(Caution, rant) What I appreciate about the comments thus far is the number of people who impose yardage limits on themselves. There are so many people out there who are not limited by those constraints. I’ve hunted with them and their excuse usually is, “hey, if it’s not dead the dogs will find it”. Sadly there are times that isn’t true and the wounded bird goes on to be coyote bait.

I have a really good shots fired, birds killed ratio most years. I’m not an exceptionally good shot but I am a picky shot, so if it looks like something that’s going to result in a wounded bird I just don’t shoot and of course take the ribbing that comes with it, without going into some lecture on the ethics of hunting. (something I really should do)

I’m not a saint, I have my share of wounded birds but usually its when I forget to follow my own rules.

As for shot size, I think 5s and 6s are a good choice but inside 35 yards with a 16 or a 20 either will kill a pheasant “if” the shooter does his or her job. I’m always amused by the people who will shoot a bird flying away, pull a few tail feathers, and then talk about how much lead a pheasant will soak up. They are a tough bird but pulling tail feathers means you shot behind the pheasant, shoot ahead even 6 inches and that bird dies on the spot.

Ok sorry for the rant, I’m preaching to the choir, I’m impressed by the people on this forum, hunting ethics is something you all know about, now if we could just spread the word. (rant off)

This has been a good discussion. My only 16 ga. is a Parker Repro two-gauge set purchased in 1994. The 16 ga. barrels, made by Kreighoff, are 28 inches marked IC and MOD. When first purchased, I intended it for ruffed grouse, early-season prairie grouse, and perhaps a few naive pheasants the first week of the season. The first season out, I was amazed to find myself still carrying the gun in mid-november and still taking pheasants clean, despite thick feathers and a goodly layer of fat on the now very wizened birds. I've hunted pheasant since 1958 (using 12 ga.)and have always favored #5 shot for wild birds, with #4 in the second barrel in the very late season. When the gun was new, about the only 16 gauge number fives I could get were Gamebore imported from England. The shot in those Gamebore shells was actually about #5 1/2, counting out to about 200 pellets/oz.

After a couple of years, I got a PW reloader and started reloading, making my own #5 loads, using components from BPI mostly. I did a lot of test patterns and learned that my particular gun actually patterned #5 best using just one oz of shot. Repeated attempts at loading 1 1/8 -oz shells were not successful. My goal was to have a late season load that had a lethal pattern at 40 yards in the IC barrel. About two years ago, I read some old market hunter accounts (black powder era) where they stated that velocity was of little consequence if the shot size was #5 or larger. Up until then, I had been loading #5 to velocities ranging from 1250 to more than 1300 fps. I remembered how well the Gamebore shells had performed the first few years and cut one of them apart. To my amazement I found that these were 2 1/2 dram eq. loads with no shotcup, just fibre wads. I then experimented with lower pressure loads, reducing velocity to about 1130 fps, but retaining a plastic shot cup. My patterns improved about 7 percent. I also made a few low-velocity loads that had no shotcup and found that these also patterned very well. These have performed well on pheasants the past two seasons as well as at the pattern board. Recently, BPI has introduced a Z-16 plastic shotcup that affords more protection for the shot column. I have tested these on pattern boards and had good results, producing tight IC patterns in the right barrel and almost full choke performance from the left barrel. To my delight, these wads also will produce good patterns with #4 shot. (I use a minimum pellet count of 85 pellets in a 30-inch circle as "good" for pheasant-size birds). We are not into the late season yet, so I havent tried any of the Z16's on wild pheasants.

I believe that in this particular gun, reduced pressures produced the biggest improvement in patterns. I load mostly 1130-1220 fps loads now.
For prairie grouse, I like 15/16 and one-ounce loads of #7 for early seaon, with #6 in the second barrel. I don't hunt late-season sharptails very often, but flush a few when pheasant hunting and the #5 pheasant loads, of course, are capable. I always load with quality hard high-antimoy shot for hunting.

The 16 gauge is my all around upland shotgun now and I only use a 12 ga. on very late season birds on days when the temps are below 10 degrees or the wind is blowing hard. On ruffed grouse, my 16 is choked too tight for the close shots we get in the popple thickets--I handload spreaders using Polywad inserts (mostly) with good results. When non-toxic loads are required, I use the Kent tungsten-matrix #5 in 1 1/16-oz. THese work well on pheasants and really well on medium ducks like Gadwall. The Kent #6 tungsten matrix are very good for teal and woodies.

It is really good to see the interest in the 16 gauge and it is nice to have this forum. We are enjoying the best pheasant season in more than 40 years, and the sixteen is getting a lot of use.

Welcome to the group Cedar 16,;you sound quite knowledgable about what you are doing. Your experiences seem to parallell quite a few of our own here. About the only real advantage of a shot cup is that it does help protect the shot at higher pressures and velocities than plain fiber or card wads.

These older paper or fiber wads work fine at pressures under 8500 Psi. However, gas pressures of 9000 psi and up tend to blow right by them. These hot jets of gas can and do disrupt the shot column, especially as the column leaves the muzzle where they will do the most harm.

Greased or impregnated felt wads sandwiched between two nitro cards tend to provide better gas seals than plain wads. Thats why the older, pre-plastic wad hi-velocity loads used impregnated felt wads under the shot. However, real felt wads have always been expensive and the prices of these old premium loads reflected the added cost. Alcan used to push a wad called the feltran wad. It wasn't felt and did not work nearly as well at higher pressures.

Some loads that use a heavy tagboard cupped gas check/seal like the Winchester Super X game loads, will work up to just under 10,000 psi but not much past that point.

I once bought a couple of boxes of the #6, 1 oz. Winchester 28 ga. Super X loads. These loads use the tagboard cup wad as a gas seal instead of plastic. I found that pressures and patterns were very inconsistant. Some shells worked well but some patterned horribly. I also noticed a number of once fired plastic hulls with stretched case mouths. I sent them back to Olin for replacement, then sold the new boxes to another 28 ga. owner who swore by them.

I then developed a 1 oz. 28 ga. magnum load based on alliant 2400 powder and an abreviated 28 ga. Pattern Control plastic wad. these loads hit just over 1200 FPS and pattern beautifully with #6 shot out of my 28 ga. guns. I used to kill a lot of early season pheasants with them until I discovered the advantages of a 16 ga. Citori. Now my 28 ga. hunting gun sits idle most of the time except for the occasional skeet round or my infrequent quail hunts.

Plastic wads also tend to protect chilled or soft shot better too. I believe Gamebore loads use a premium shot called Diamond shot. It is about the same hardness as high antimony premium magnum shot I suspect. Plastic shot cups do help a little but are not nearly as important with magnum shot as the softer kinds.

You mentioned a Z16 wad with a deeper cup. Is that the B&P wad also known as the 16 ga Trap Commander? If you have a vernier micrometer, would you be so kind as to let us know what the shot cup depth, the wad diameter, and the OAL is for these wads in thousanths of an inch. They might be just the ticket for use in the thinner walled Fiocchi, Cheddite, and new WW polyformed cases if they are long enough to afford a good crimp with 1 oz. loads in these roomier cases. I tried getting the info from BP Inc. but all they would give is the diameter at .615". Thanks, 16GG.

In reply to 16gauge guy, I'd be happy to measure the Z-16, but will have to wait til my buddy gets back from Colorado on Nov 3 so I can use his calipers. I can tell you that Z-16's load one ounce just fine in a Fiochi hull, and while I haven't tried them in a Chedditte, suspect they will load fine in those as well. I will be loading some soon, but need to get more #5 shot first-I've got Cheditte hulls so can confirm if they work--no experience with the Winchester hulls. Thanks for the caveats on fibre wads. I keep pressures below 8500 on almost all my loads now so it may not be an issue. On most, but not all, of the fibre-wad loads I use a plastic BPI obturator over the powder, but also use fibre over powder wads from time-to-time just to be retro, I guess. The Z-16 is the same as the "Trap Commander". I just looked at their catologue and I see the Z-16 can handle 1 1/8-oz. It is a few months since I loaded those Z-16's with one ounce, but I probably put a 20-gage felt wad in the bottom of the shot cup to adjust the height of the shot column for good crimping.