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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:10 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks Cedar, I'm sure the diamensions of the Z16 wad will prove useful. FYI, a 28ga. or .50 cal 1/8" thick nitro card wad fits perfectly into a 16 ga. shot cup and displaces almost exactly 1/8 oz. of shot. They are considerably cheaper than felt wads and work as well. You can order them directly from Circle Fly Wads at a very reasonable bulk price. I buy mine by the 10,000 lot. It sure beats the 1000 per prices of most shops. 16GG
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rayb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:04 am  Reply with quote
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reading all this discussion about chokes and loads for different chokes and different patterns reminds me that reloading to a specific gun is always interesting, and that perhaps we can learn from those who have gone before us

in black powder muzzleloaders, the loading "rule of thumb", based on my limited experience, seems to be:

startimg with equal volumes powder & shot (1 to 1 ratio)

for cylinder bored guns try a more shot & less powder ratio to improve patterns

for choked guns (jug choked or regular modern type squeezed barrel, more powder. less shot in the ratio

so if shot volume remains constant, the "rule" seems to be more powder for choked guns, less powder for cylinder bored guns

or put another way, more velocity for choked guns, less for cylinder bores

i think that's similar to what i was hearing in some of the previous posts

Your results, of course may vary

so what are the physics of this observation?

any ideas??

rayb

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:28 pm  Reply with quote
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As long as pressures are kept to the least needed for the most velocity, this maxim can run true. However, top end pressures tend to degrade patterns, so it is a matter of balancing velocity and pressure.

I've also found that as a rule, the bigger the shot and the harder it is, the less choke you need to get good patterns. This is especially true in the smaller gauges. Also, bigger shot does not need as much muzzle velocity as smaller shot to kill cleanly.

That is why I go to 1-1/4 oz of hard #4 pelletsat moderate velocities (1200-1240 FPS in the 16 for really tough conditions. I use Blue Dot, a very slow shotgun powder for these loads. Pressures are under 9700 psi and these loads pattern beautifully out of a loose imp. Mod tube or barrel all the way out to 40 yards or so. 16GG.
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rayb
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:27 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy wrote:
As long as pressures are kept to the least needed for the most velocity, this maxim can run true. However, top end pressures tend to degrade patterns, so it is a matter of balancing velocity and pressure. ......
...... Pressures are under 9700 psi and these loads pattern beautifully out of a loose imp. Mod tube or barrel all the way out to 40 yards or so. 16GG.



the part about harder shot and chkoe seems to make sense...

How are you determining that your pressure is 9700 psi?

you have access to a lab?

rayb

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cedar16
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:50 am  Reply with quote
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In response to 16gaugeguy, I found a data sheet on the Z-16 wads. The diameter is .665, the length is 1.500, and the shotcup depth is .690. I loaded a few of these in Fiocci hulls the other day using one-oz of #5. They crimped beautifully without adding any felt wads to adjust the shot column. We're leaving tommorow for SD where I should have opportunity to try them on some tough, wild flushing roosters.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:01 am  Reply with quote
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Thanks Cedar, they sound like very well designed wads for use in those polyformed hulls with bigger internal diamensions like Cheddites and
Fiocchis among others. I'll have to try some. Does Graf's market these
wads?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No lab RB, but most of the loading data I use contains the relative pressure info. I can usually interpolate any pressure levels for powder charges between those published fairly accurately. I have one of the old Pawlik load gauges although it is now somewhat antiquated. It still works well for most powders that have been made for over 30 years. I 've also occasionally called my friends at Alliant for help with loads at the high end of the pressure range.

I've also occasionally sent off a small lot of reloaded shells to Alliant for pressure testing. They were very helpful when I was developing a 1 oz. 28 ga. magnum load based on their 2400 powder. These 1220FPS loads have proven to be excellent performers on pheasant with #6 nickel or copper plated shot and pattern far better than the WW factory 1 oz. loads.

Most powder manufacturers welcome your questions about pressure ranges. They want you to have all the knowledge you need to determine what your loads are doing. so call them up and ask. They are very good sources of knowledge and very helpful for the most part.
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rayb
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:58 am  Reply with quote
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thank you for that interesting and helpful response.

rayb

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:09 am  Reply with quote
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There is one important point I forgot to mention RB. Most shot weight loads at a certain velocity in any given hull and wad combo will have a range of suitable powders. Choosing the powder with the slowest burn rate will usually result in patterns with tighter center cores. A good example are 1-1/8 oz. trap loads. Many trap shooters load their singles loads with Red dot, a fast powder and their handicap loads with Green dot into the same hull /wad combo. the key factor present is load pressure.

At a given velocity of say, 1145 FPS (2-3/4 dram equiv.), out of a full choke barrel, Red dot tends to throw a pattern with a more open core. This will usually place more shot in the outer ring for a more evenly distrubuted pattern out to about 35 yards. At the same velocity range out of the same full choke, Green dot tends to throw a pattern with a heavier center core. The pattern will hold together further out to say 39- 45 yards, the average handicap distance at which targets are generally broken. Red dot generates more pressure at a given velocity than Green dot in most cases.

This same phenonenon often occurs with hunting loads. That is why unique is a more suitable powder for 16 ga. 1 oz. loads with bigger shot over Green dot. Unique throws a denser pattern core. Herco will throw even tighter cores at higher velocities than Unique, all other things being equal.

By choosing the slower powder of two or three choices available, you can manipulate your pattern spread in any given loads to throw tighter cores all other things being equal. Use faster powder if you want a faster opening pattern. That is why Red dot and 700X are such popular powders with 12 ga. skeet reloaders. I hope this added info helps. 16GG.
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