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tommyt
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 15

We all know what a delight a 16 can be for 95% of all our hunting needs.The American public is stuck on the magnum craze, or bigger is better, so i think the only thing that will really bring back the 16 is 3" shooting 1and3/8oz or 1and 1/2oz of shot. Mossberg or NEF could chamber there guns for it. Next would be to get one of the ammo companies to make the shells.
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Parker Trojan
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:08 am  Reply with quote
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The Brits have been smarter than us on guns and ammo for a long time. They figured out that birds are killed with pattern and not shot string; look at all the driven pheasant that they kill with 2" 12ga loads that only have 15/16oz of shot. I love the 16ga just the way it is, 2 3/4" with a 1oz. payload. Smile Very Happy
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brdhnt
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:54 pm  Reply with quote
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, American shooters have the idea that if big is good, bigger is better, but a 3" 16 is not the way to go.

The 3" 20 was developed by some Winchester Engineer's in the 1930's because some of the Winchester Executives wanted it for duck hunting. They didn't do a 3" 16 then because they liked their 16's just the way they were.

Pushing 1 1 /4 ounce out of a 16 is already lenghtening the shot string to the point where it is beginning to become ineffective. Pushing another 1/8th or 1/4 of an ounce of shot through the same bore size would not accomplish anything of value.

The 3" 20 is much publicized and seldom tested. Even on a static pattern board, the 3" 20 leaves a lot to be desired and when used on a moving board or in the wind which gives a 3 dimensional view, it gets even worse.
Understand that I was an advocate of the 20 gauge for a number of years and wrote off hit but not recovered birds to poor shooting. When I started pattern testing, I discovered that the 3" 20 shared some of the blame.

TMB
________
Motorcycle tires


Last edited by brdhnt on Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pumpgun
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:31 pm  Reply with quote
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A quote from the sixteen gauge manual, by ballistic products, p.7 says it all: "A three inch sixteen would be like drawing a backward baseball hat on the Mona Lisa. It is immature, and does not improve the ballistic conditions of the sixteen - nor would it allow the sixteen to "become" a twelve gauge."
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:12 am  Reply with quote
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Exactomundo! We need a 3" 16ga like fish need bicycles. I have 3 20ga. guns (much neglected guns since my love affair with the 16 began). I have never shot a 3" shell through them. In fact, I don't know a soul who has in nearly 35 years of shooting. What we need is a good light weight American built 16 like an LT-16 Remington without the 3" BS. All the 3" 20 ga. shell did was make what could be nice light guns too heavy.

As to shot strings and patterns, good patterns tend to come from short shot strings but not always. A flared pattern from dinged up shot will prove ineffective, no matter how short the string starts out. With the advent of the plastic shot cup, longer strings can be very effective if the string does not get too wide in diameter. This is why both the .410 and the 28 ga are so much more effective today than 45 years ago. In the plastic wad department, we have been light years ahead of the British and the rest of the world to boot. They are catching up now, because they finally came around to the intrinsic logic of the concept's advantages.

Incidentally, the upper crust British hunting set have been the main cause of the British ammo makers dragging their feet. It seems Lord Fartington and his friends do not care for all those little plastic cups laying around on his lawn after a pheasant shoot. Pesky little American abominations and all that you know! Ta Ta! Laughing
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laxcoach
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Not really on the subject at hand, but I own a 1907 16 ga 2E Elsie with 3" chambers and long forcing cones. This gun was made by a barrelmaker at Hunter for himself. Why, I have no idea, but it is deadly on doves and has the recoil of a 20. Even if readily available I would never use 3" shells in it.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:26 am  Reply with quote
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Amen to the long forcing cones, what for? to the 3" chambers. It is the plactic wad and its flexible gas check that has made the long forcing cone possible. If the cones can be lengthened safely on your gun, do it. Your gun will pattern that much sweeter. the recoil factor is a minor contribution. However, lighter shot charges will be more effective, which will certainly reduce recoil.

Incidently, always have your chambers checked to make sure they are about a 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch longer than the gun's marked chamber length. This will insure that a longer than standard case mouth will have the room to fully open, and your shot charge including the wad does not get restricted at the end of the chamber. this will also aid patterns and prevent extra recoil. Most modern gun companies do this as a matter of course now. You can have this done when you have the cones lenthened too if its needed.
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Scolari
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:41 pm  Reply with quote
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I've been watching this post for a while and I'm surprised that it didn't generate more of a response. Maybe I can heat things up.
I agree with those who feel that the 16 is just fine the way it is. But that is a minority position. You have to realize that. The fact is that the 16 doesn't offer any more than the 20. Think I'm wrong! Just look at the shelves. I was recently at a nice gun shop in Idaho. The man had a dozen fine Spanish doubles on the shelf. Only one was a 16. When I loked at the ammunition, he had a lot of 12 and 20's but only two boxes of 16 gauge. The public has the perception that the 20 is at least as good as the 16. To an extent, perception is a reality. I would have to agree that there isn't anything my 16's do that my 20's can't. I know it's a lot easier to get the 20 gauge ammunition. Thats the way the public looks at it. Why bother with the 16 when the 20 will do just as well.
Yes there is such a thing as magnumitis. I'll never forget sitting in a duck blind with a friend back in the 60's. Thats when we could still use lead on waterfoul. I was shooting a 16 and he had a 3 inch 20. He thought his gun was better just because it shot 3 inch magnums. It didn't matter that the 16 was shooting the same load at nearly 100 fps faster. It's the perception thing again.
You can't blame companies for not investing much in the 16. Why? There in it for profit. Why duplicate a manfacturing line. Most of you know that ammunition sales for the 16 only comprise less than 3% of sales. Why would a company invest in a limited market.
The 16 gauge will live on for many years, but I don't think it will increase market share unless something changes. Making a 3 inch shell may just improve sales. I don't think it will make it a better gun, but the public may think so. Perception! Perception sells.
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tommyt
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 15

Thank you Scolari.
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Orry
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:31 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Northeast Ohio

I sent back a case of 20 gauge 3-inch Bismuth to the manufacture after a few shots into a pattern board. The pattern was pitiful. I talked with their people at length and sadly, it is all marketing. I was told that a 20 gauge 2 ¾-inch shell will not sell. The shooting public demands heavy loads. Doubt many of them know anything past the fact that they just bought all the firepower that was available to them.

I shoot 1 ounce of Bismuth # 6's in my 16 gauge on the open side and 1 1/8 ounce #5 TM on the tighter side. The 1 ¼ ounce produces a poor pattern for me. Irregardless of the masses and perception, it pays to do your own thinking. You can only push so much down a barrel and get performance.
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rayb
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:55 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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i shoot 20 ga 3" in my SxS 16, don't have an o/u yet to try yet..

the 20 ga were bought on sale at the end of the summer, promotional Federal loads, $2.38 a box. They have 1 oz #8 shot. I cannot tell the difference one way or the other at the trap field, i can miss just as many either way: with the 20's and the inserts or the regular 16 ga rounds. Laughing

last fall i also had a case of 20ga #6 shot, (same deal, $2.38 per box) even those seemed to be about the same as far as me hitting or missing....

it would be interesting to go to the pattern board for an extensive work out and comparison of the various combinations...since all have the same 1oz of shot, would they pattern a lot differently in the 20ga -3" vs the 16 ga 2 3/4"?? Who knows. I know i do not have the answer to the question, but it would be interesting to find out

unfortunately work is interfering with my play time lately..

rayb

_________________
anything other than the 16 gauge is a passing fad
(kind of like smokeless powder)
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Scolari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:11 am  Reply with quote
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The pattern board really tells the story. But I'm sure there is more to a good shell than just how much lead is in it. You have to have just the right combination of all components.
I used to load a 12 ga load for geese. It was 1 1/4 oz shot with buffrer at about 1225 fps. It patterned better than any 1 1/2 oz load.
Recently I bought some of those turkey head paper patterns. I shot a number of 20 ga and 16 ga loads at them. I used 1oz to 1 1/4 oz loads of #6 shot. The most number of hits came from a Fiocchi 20ga 1 1/4 oz load.Its their nickel plated pheasant load. I tried the Federal 16 ga 1 1/4 oz load. It wasn't good at all. I can't explain the results. thats just the way it is.
I know there is the question of the shot string being longer with the 20 ga. But honestly, I've never noticed the difference in the field. Quail just seem to fall no matter what gauge I use. I'm also sure the length of the shot string doesn't make any difference on a static target. Even if the shot string is 10 ft, it only takes .009 seconds more for the last pellet to hit the target. I don't think a turkey can duck his head that fast.
Just shoot what you like and have confidence in.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:08 am  Reply with quote
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Scolari, I have to disagree about the 20 being as effective as a 16. It just ain't so. The bigger the bore and chamber, the better the ballistics with both bigger shot, more of it, and higher the velocities with less pressure. Its a matter of available bore expansion. Its pure physics, plain and simple.

What is nice about 16s is they can be built about as light as any 3" chambered 20. This would not be true if the 20 had only 2-3/4"chambers and the corporate lawyers did not insist that guns be severely over built.

Always remember, "the enlightened should never address the masses." You can't argue with an ignorant man who has been told by the so called gun company experts that his 20 will shoot as well as a 16. He will always believe the experts. However, he probably also got the hives every time he came within 3 feet of a physics text book in school too Wink.

Just nod politely and bust a pheasant dead in the air past 35 yards with a 1300 fps 1 oz. load of #6 out of your 16 right in front of him. Then do it again for the whole effect. He'll get that "Gee, I wish I could do that look" and wander off wondering why he can't.

As for the Federal vs. Fiocchi loads, they are two different cats. Its not a valid comparison. A better one would be Fiocchi loads of the same quality and design for both gauges. I've never been impressed with thr Federal game loads, especially the heavier ones. My own carefully developed hand loads beat hell out of them every time. I've heard the Fiocchi 16 ga. golden pheasant load is a real fine one. I don't know, I've never needed to buy them. My own loads work very well.

The 20 can only equal a 16 with 7/8 loads and under of shot #6 or smaller at or below 1300 FPS. Any loads of bigger shot, more shot or higher velocities from a 20 cannot and will not approach the performance of a good 16, period. true, a 16 is not at its best with 1-1/4 oz of shot. That is 12 ga territory. However, it gets by with the load out to 40 yards from the right choke (which is an improved modified or tight modified, never a full) and does very well with 1-1/8 oz loads, which no 20 can handle all that well. You can't argue with the laws of physics and remain being perceived as intelligent, maybe popular-- but not smart Laughing .

However, most people do not care really. Its more a matter of what is easily available. OK, we are gun cranks, but we are enlightened gun cranks. I'll keep my 16s for upland work, thank you.
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Scolari
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:33 pm  Reply with quote
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I really didn't mean to imply that the 20 gauge is a better gun. What I meant to say is that there isn't enough noticible difference so that manufacturers would run two product lines of a similar product.
The way the public looks at it is that if you have a 20, you can easily find shells from 7/8 os to 1 1/4 oz. If you have a 16, you shoot 1oz to 1 1/4 oz and have a hell of a time finding them and pay more to boot.
From a sales stand point, it's a no brainer.
As for me, I have a couple 16's that I like and will continue to shoot them. I just have to remember to order shells way ahead of time. Most of the general public won't go to that much trouble.
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

I don't think a 3" 16ga would sell any better. If you want more power and range a 12ga is the natural choice. My primary shotgun for 25 years was a little Spanish double 20ga.. I couldn't count the game I took with it. When I needed a gun with more reach I grabbed my 16ga pump. However, my son out grew his 410 and laid claim on my 20ga. So I took a Flues ,16ga, and had the barrels cut to 25". It's the best brush gun I've ever had. Even with low pressure loads it kills cleaner then my 20 ever did. I only care about how a gun performs in the field.
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