16ga.com ~ View topic - Steelshoot -AYA

Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 30

I have a AYA #2,is steel safe to shoot in it? I got @'s and 4's ordered.

JD

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

"I have a AYA #2,is steel safe to shoot in it? I got @'s and 4's ordered."

As far as I know, there have been no Spanish guns designed for steel shot or anything other than lead. Certainly older #2's would have been built before Non-Toxic shot was a requirement. Best to date your firearm and contact AyA as they built the gun.-Dick

Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 59 Location: ILLINOIS

What year was the gun manufactured?

What are the fixed chokes?

Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Lodi, CA

Don't do it!! Personally, I do not shoot steel through gun that I value, especially through an AYA #2. Spanish "belota" steel is strong, and chances are that if you HAD to shoot steel, the gun would handle it. I actually shot 2 3/4 steel through an Ugartechea BLNE in a pinch and it was fine, but why screw up a good thing? I just wouldn't recommend it. Get some Tungsten Matrix or Bismuth.

Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 30

I got a email back from AYA.

Dear Sir,

Our advise is to use cartridges under tested proof and proof is stamped in
barrels.

regards. AYA-AGUIRRE Y ARANZABAL, S.A.

I don' think they understood the question. They don't have steelshot laws.
I will try again.

I would love to take my aya to the duck blind,or on federal land were non toxic shot is required.

The gun is 3 years old, I think it is choked Improved and modified.

Is the other non toxic shot avaible for reloading?

JD

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

You might want to direct your question to NewEnglandCustomGun.com.
They're a major AyA importer AND they speak English. Smile

Pete

Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 30

I got a reply to my second e-mail.

""Our guns in standard aren´t tested for steel.
Guns are only tested for steel when is required by customer and in that case
is stamped in barrels with a fleur de lis.

regards. AYA-AGUIRRE Y ARANZABAL, S.A."

I will check with a couple of the local rep,amd see what there experience is?

JD

Steel is not that mysterious. Is it? If the chokes are open enough for the shot to pass through choke without bulging, and you aren't pushing the limit load wise, I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to. If the shot rides through the barrel in a plastic shot cup, you don't have to worry about scoring the barrel. If the gun is proofed for only an ounce, don't shoot more than an ounce.

But, don't listen to me. I'm thinking in theory, not reality.

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

For what it's worth, one needs to understand the current situation with Non-Toxic shot suitable for firearms not designed for steel shot or other hard Non Toxic shot. The current alternatives are/used to be Bismuth Cartridge Company and Kent Tunsten Matrix (TM).
The Bismuth Cartridge Company is no longer in business and if you find any on the shelves, it is the last.
Kent TM is not only hard to find but the price has doubled in the last year to about $28 a box of ten for 16 gauge #5 1&1/16 oz which is the only 16 gauge shot size available in that load.
There is no other that i know about, other than one supplier who has no supply of shot and HeviShot which makes unsubstantiated claims for its line.
You contacted AyA and AyA told you the gun was not designed for steel as I suspected. If you use steel or whatever you not only risk barrel scoring but since steel does not swage down in the choke, stresses on the gun in the choke area higher than design.
Your choice.-Dick

Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 30

Dick their reply was less than clear, Are the guns they build to be proofed for steel any different?
New England Arms said they have asked and could not get any thing in writing so they recommend not using it. If the bores were chromed lined then I would not think twice.

JD

Hey there fellas,
Here's my 2 cents. If the gun has chrome lined barrels w/ imp. cyl or more open choking you are fine, chrome is harder than steel and the shot will not score the barrel walls. If you have a modified choke / full choke, don't shoot steel. It patterns like hell thru those tightly constricted chokes anyhow ( there is an off chance it will pattern well, but I want photo proof ). Some pump and auto manufactures were chrome lining the barrels back in the mid 60's (Franchi, SKB, etc) as for doubles from Spain I cannot accurately say. I will say though that my examination of even low cost ( winchester dry-lok ) shells have a substantial wad/cup around the shot, and I think little chance of the steel shot actually contacting the barrel. I would not shoot steel from a barrell that was not chrome lined. period. I would not, though, be worried about chamber pressure unless you are exceeding the Oz. proofing for your gun. I don't know if I helped at all now that I'm reading this.
-danny

Member Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 446 Location: Wisconsin

The potential problem is not only that steel shot is harder than the steel used in your barrels BUT that fact that steel shot will not swage in the chokes causing a stress that may cause the barrels to seperate or bulge. Chrome lines bores will do nothing to prevent this from occuring. The steel barrels, joining method and design have to allow for the higher stresses caused by steel shot passing thru the chokes or it is a 'crap shoot'.
In a pump or semi auto the worst one can get is barrel scoring and a bulge but in a double, the barrels may seperate from the rib and themselves.
I have never heard of the higher proof level for AyA and steel shot but if New England can't get anything out of the Spanish, no one can. My experience communicating with AyA was a disaster on a bespoke gun.
Good luck.-Dick

Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 30

I talked to john at Quailty, He soild me the gun. He got customers shooting steel with the AYA with no problems so far. He does not know how steady of a diet they shoot.

I looked on line for some kent matrix loads or shot. Are they nuts !!!
3.60 or so a round,with shot selling for 7lbs at a 130.00. {About 100 loads}

I own a double rifle in 470, a box of factory ammo is about $275.00 for box of 20. I thought that was sticker shock. (It has never fired factory ammo}
The clerk smiled and asked if i would feel good hunting one of the big five with $2.00 per round ammo. I smilled back and said only I I loaded it.

At $3.60 a shot at woodcock, On a bad day I am looking at 50 bucks per meal just in ammo cost. The world is going nuts!!!

JD

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

I speak Spanish fluently and spent several years at the US Embassy in Spain as an attache. Additionally, I spent time at the Spanish Gun Factories/Eibar shotgun houses going through them because, well, because I could and got special treatment. What AYA is trying to tell you is that they have NOT tested that particular gun for steel unless it is so marked. Each and every gun is tested (proofed) by an independent proof house for a particular load. It doesn't mean that the gun can't shoot steel if it isn't proofed for it, it just means that they haven't tested the gun for that particular load. AyA understood perfectly what you asked. Take AyA at face value for what they said "Our advise is to use cartridges under tested proof and proof is stamped in barrels " and "Our guns in standard aren´t tested for steel. Guns are only tested for steel when is required by customer and in that case is stamped in barrels with a fleur de lis.". They said "Only use cartridges that the gun is proofed for and if it is proofed for steel then a fluer de lis will be stamped on the barrels."

So what everyone is telling you is true, chokes got to be not too tight, scratching the barrels if they are not chromed, etc.

Bottom line: if the gun isn't proofed for steel, AYA will not recommend that you shoot steel. Is it built to shoot steel......more than likely as they build and proof guns for steel, but unless your particular gun is proofed for steel, then shooting steel will be at your own risk.

Sound like bureaucratic double talk? You are right, but that is the best you are going to get from them. To understand more, investigate proofing at:

http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/body_proofing.html

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/proofreasons.html

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/proofregs.html

Good luck!