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NE16
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 39
Location: nebraska

After regrouping from a great opening week of pheasant hunting I’m thinking about taking my 16ga. Model 12 out for a little duck hunting, providing we get some weather to push ducks down this way. What I need is some expert opinions on what would be the better choice, Tungsten Matrix or Bismuth and which shot size you prefer.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:06 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

NE 16: Just my personal opinion but I wouldn't shoot Tungsten Matrix in a Model 1912. I've been using Bismuth NoTox in my 16 ga. Model 12 and the load is 1 1/8 oz. of Bismuth in #4 shot; it hits the ducks hard and does not damage the barrel......but it is expensive; about $34.95 for a box of 25.

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Mr. 16 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:04 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Troy, MI

Both will kill well....TM is closer to lead on the density scale than bismuth, but it also slightly more expensive. I use bismuth only because I can get it as a reloading component and can customize my loads. ITM isn't availabe as a reloading component (at least not here in the States).

As far as sizes go, I think factory bismuth only comes in #4 and #6.....I would suggest the #4 shot.

Good luck!

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mdoerner
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:42 am  Reply with quote
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Bismuth comes in BB, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7.5 sizes. Only thing more expensive is Gold...... 7lbs for $85. So for a 1 oz load you're looking at $0.85 per shot not including primer, wad, hull costs. Of course, you're gonna use more than 1oz for duck/goose, right? (unless your shooting 16 Ga! Very Happy )

Mike Doerner

You can buy it from...

http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/products.asp?dept=64
http://www.precisionreloading.com/2004catalog.htm

There was a "Hunter's Bismuth" awhile ago, but they never responded to my email and there may have been "patent issues".
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Mr. 16 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Troy, MI

Mike;
I think the original poster is looking for loaded ammo, not pellets for reloading, in which case his only options are #6 or #4. My personal prefernce is for a #5 handload. As far as being expensive: yes, it is....But I believe any of the tungsten alloys (Tungsten matrix, tungsten iron, hevishot) are all more expensive.

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popplecop
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:40 pm  Reply with quote
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I use both Kent Matrix and Bismuth. I bite the bullet and buy a flat of Kent every couple of years. as i say I shoot both, but prefer Kent on waterfowl.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:38 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

I was out looking for ducks today and I did jump a hen wood duck on an irrigation ditch. As the hen flushed, I shot it at between 35 and 40 yards with my Model 12 full choke 16 gauge. I used the 1 1/8 oz. load of Bismuth #4's I mentioned in an above post. The duck was dropped cleanly. I've not been able to find the #6 Bismuth but would guess they would work as well.

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woodcock
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:47 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 28 Oct 2005
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Location: Louisiana

I have used both and have come to prefer the tungsten-matrix it seems to perform like the lead shot I grew up with in equivalent sizes whereas the bismuth requires that I go one size larger. I have also found that the cost differential is negligable. In guns choked modified or less tungsten is lethal at lead ranges and I can find no documentation that older barrels are harmed by it.
Woodcock
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NE16
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:43 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 39
Location: nebraska

Thanks for all your posts.

My concern was two fold, first, if the TM would hurt the barrel of the old gun like steel could and secondly if there was a difference in the performance of one from the other.

From what I've read it looks like the TM performance is perhaps closer to lead but one poster had concerns about its use in the Model 12.

Ballistic products has the Kent TM in 5 shot at $10.95 for 10 rounds and Bismuth 4 shot at $16.95 for 10 rounds. Both pretty pricey but the TM would win out on price alone. Actually if I shop around a little I can get a little better price on either of these choices, however I'm not planning a major waterfowl hunt here, just want to take the 16 out for a day or so.
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pumpgun
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:11 pm  Reply with quote
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I would buy BOTH, and pattern each one, and buy the one that patterns best. I've never patterned bismuth, but I have patterned TM in a couple different guns, and I've gotten fairly open patterns, similar to what I'd get with chilled lead. But some guns may shoot it very well. I would have no qualms shooting TM in a sound M12.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

NE 16: I have heard that Tungsten and I know that steel should not be used in the Model 12. You have a Model 1912, and I don't know if it is in pristine shape, or a shooter only, but if I were concerned about maintaining its condition, I would research the question before I used Tungsten in it. Bismuth was designed not to harm the steel in older guns and I know it's all right; I shoot it effectively in all my M-12's. In my area, which is not exactly at the edge of the earth, I can't find Tungsten-Matrix even if I did want to shoot it---I'd have to special-order it. In Nebraska, depending on your location, it could be as hard/harder to find. One thing I do know for certain: the Bismuth will efficiently kill large heavy ducks in a 16 gauge, 1 1/8 oz. load because I've been doing it for years.

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mdoerner
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:20 pm  Reply with quote
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Wolfchief wrote:
NE 16: I have heard that Tungsten and I know that steel should not be used in the Model 12. You have a Model 1912, and I don't know if it is in pristine shape, or a shooter only, but if I were concerned about maintaining its condition, I would research the question before I used Tungsten in it. Bismuth was designed not to harm the steel in older guns and I know it's all right; I shoot it effectively in all my M-12's. In my area, which is not exactly at the edge of the earth, I can't find Tungsten-Matrix even if I did want to shoot it---I'd have to special-order it. In Nebraska, depending on your location, it could be as hard/harder to find. One thing I do know for certain: the Bismuth will efficiently kill large heavy ducks in a 16 gauge, 1 1/8 oz. load because I've been doing it for years.


OK, here we go....

Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix - OK in all shotgun types

Tungsten-Iron, Hevi-Shot, Hevi-Steel, Steel, the new Federal Stuff (High Density Waterfowl), and Depleted-Uranium* - Only use in shotgun barrels approved for steel shot.

*Note: Depleted-Uranium has not been approved for waterfowl use. Nor will it ever. If you actually manage to get your hands on some, the Feds will certainly want to know if you'd like a Gitmo-Orange jumpsuit for Xmas. Very Happy

You will only develop a ring bulge at the choke if you use steel in a non-approved for steel barrel if it is choked tight like Xfull, full, Imp. Mod, and possibly modified. If you have a polychoke on the end of your M12 you can use steel shot if you open up the choke.

That's it in a nutshell. Although the Fedral High Density is a polymer suspension like Tungsen-Matrix from Kent, it is softer than STEEL but not as soft as LEAD. FWIW.

Mike Doerner
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