16ga.com ~ View topic

Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 3 Location: long island n.y

Hi new to forum, looks like this is the place in the know 16ga. wise and more. saw a browning gran lightning 16ga. , called browning on serial # they confirmed model, ga. and stated gun was made 2004!. My questions are...what frame/recv'r size is this gun made on, is $ 1500 too much for used gun [hard to tell looks like never shot] and do they really kick like a mule?.. I shoot 525 sporting 12ga. for skeet etc. have 20ga. citori that just started to use and like , how different can 16 be?? thanks in advance for any and all comments

Guest

Welcome, I am also fairly new here. You will find much knowledge and great info on this site.

Browning's Gran Lightning is my favorite Citori configuration. Citoris fit me well, which is the main reason for my preference, but I also find the subtle appearance and lack of over-embellishment of the Gran really asthetically appealing, especially when you find one with outstanding wood. I believe it is the only Citori offered with high-grade wood with a satin finish, not high-gloss. I am not a high-gloss fan.

I have a 20 gauge Gran and it is one of my favorite guns. I have not fired the 16 gauge version, but can tell you that the 20, with no recoil pad, beats the hell out of me with repeated rounds at the clays range. I think this is as much a symptom of the contour of the butt (curved with a fairly sharp point on the bottom edge) and my anatomy, as it is felt recoil. Hunting it is not a problem. Not wanting to alter the wood or change the appearance of the gun, I simply use a slip on pad on the gun when at the range.

Production of the 16 gauge Grans was limited. I believe they sell new for around $2400. to $2600. when you find one now. Some folks think they are over priced, perhaps because they lack a bunch of fancy engraving. I find them to be a classic, rock solid and durable O/U. Just my opinion. Wink

Guest

I got side-tracked and missed one of your questions. The 16 gauge Citoris are built on true 16 gauge frames to the best of my knowledge. Regards. Wink

Actually, the 16 ga. Citori is built on a slightly modified 20 ga. frame. It is a tad (.050") wider to accomodate the necessarily wider barrel monoblock. However, it is no deeper than a 20 frame and the barreled action weighs less.

Miroku was making these guns for the European market under their own name for some time before they were offered in the states for the first time in 1987. Browning simply had them adapted for the US market under their name. They are probably the finest handling Citori ever produced, because of their unique weight, balance, and pointability. It was probably not by design but purely a matter of luck. Does not matter. The guns are excellent. Its too bad there will be no more.

That doesn't sound like a bad price. A couple years ago I paid $1320 for a Lightning Field 16 gauge. I regularly shoot 100 to 150 rounds for sporting clays and doesn't seem to bother me. I do use a Browning shooting vest and a gel pad on the stock. When the gun still had the hard pad on it, I did notice the recoil.

light weight guns under 7 lbs. or so will always generate more felt recoil with heavier hunting loads of 1 oz. and up. Its simple physics. We rarely notice recoil when hunting due to our adrenaline high, our heavier clothes and the way we mount the gun.

The answer to felt recoil besides modifying the gun pad is to reduce the load weight. 6-1/2 lb guns don't recoil much with 3/4 oz loads or low speed 7/8 oz loads at or under 1125 FPS. 16 ga guns are best shot on the skeet range or for limited use on the 5- stand course where heavier charges of lead are not needed. Ask anyone who shoots a 28 ga gun. That is why reloading for a fixed breech 16 like a Citori makes all the sense in the world. Once you witness the effectiveness of a 3/4 oz load on a clay target or smaller game bird, you will understand why the gauge is the most versitile of all the upland guns.

By the way, regardless of what some folks claim, the Browning 16 ga. Citori is without question, the best value dollar for dollar on the market. It is as balanced and as pointable as the best of the doubles. Its weight is as practically light as good shooting characteristics willl allow. It has the choke tubes and is as versitile as any. It has the speed of a second shot only found with any good double. It is dependable, rugged, and backed by an exceptional service guarentee from a long time, well established American firm.

Yes Merkels are great guns, but not really any better than a Citori when you figure cost vs reliable service and realistic evaluation of handling characteristics. Plus, I defy you to get a Merkel fixed as easily and as cost effectively as a Citori. And no, they won't outlast one either. Both are damned near unbreakable if handled and used sensibly.

Most folks who spend more are entitled to their opinions. But in my opinion, they are defending their need to have the "very best" based on the sheer cost, and the added aesthetics top grade wood, and fine engraving will add. However, their guns do not function any better than a plainer, but well designed and made gun like the Citori. And some " best quality sidelock guns will always be more prone to service problems than boxlock type actioned guns. And wasn't the boxlock developed as a more serviceable and reliable alternative to the antiquated sidelock concept? I think so regardless of all the reactionary BS you might here on the matter. If sidelocks were better, they'd be the predominant style of gun. They are not. they ar passe for a reason. Throwing huge amounts of money at the problem won't change reality. If you doubt that, ask congress. They've been doing just that for years and it still hasn't worked.

(What am I laughing about, I'm a tax payer too Crying or Very sad

.)

It is the nature of the best sidelock guns due to the wood between the locks that swells and shrinks as all wood will. Then there is the effect of oil and grease on the wood too. The dirty little secret about most "best guns' is the much higher cost of repairs and upkeep these guns demand if used constantly. That is why they were and are owned mostly by the upper classes who can afford to have them rebuilt down through the generations. Only wealth can support that kind of tradition. I'd rather spend my hard earned money on reloading componants and skeet rounds at the club so I can maintain my shooting skills to outshoot these high falooting phonies, with their 50k sidelock monstrosities. Wink

You can't get a Maserati serviced at Toyota prices, and you can't get a Boss or Purdey serviced for the cost of a Browning either. Yes, the Maserati will out accelerate and pass any Toyota made. But where other than on a race track does it matter. The same reasoning goes for guns. So all other considerations aside, lets get real here about best guns vs good serviceable mainstream guns folks. A crushed clay or a dead pheasant is only so crushed or dead. An added 3 to 100K isn't going to make a gun any more effective, period.

And how many of us will ever be invited to a high society pheasant shoot with English or any other royalty. As for me, who the hell would want to. I like my plain old mainstream American hunting buddies just fine. They fit me like a pair of well washed and well worn familiar blue jeans, and I would not trade a one of them for all the dukes and earls in Europe. Besides, any one of them could shoot the pants off these inbred, hi class twits, and won't faint dead away at the sight of pheasant guts when the birds are dressed. Wink

Even if you must spend the extra money to have the Citori stock tweaked to fit you precisely, or if you'd like the balance personalized, you are still way ahead of the game price wise and valuewise for what you will get. Plus, because they are a finite entity and have been discontinued (as far as we know) they will continue to hold their value if well cared for as well or better than the so called "best guns". So buy that Citori and don't ever regret it because somebody spent more money for a gun no better than yours in what really counts. Nuff Said. Lets go shoot, clean, and eat some birds. 16GG. Razz

Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 3 Location: long island n.y

thanks for all the info, I think I'm sold but... have found three citoris the gran $1550 is used dealer claims just used 1x for maybe 2 boxes of shells ??? who knows, 2nd is same dealer with new lightning feather $ 1750, 3RD IS a different dealer in area he has a basic lightning $1450. all guns have 28" barrels guess the 16 ga. not too popular in this area L.I NEW YORK. what to do they are here but which one ? I like the satin finsh on the gran , also notice many of those who have citori have the feather. and I guess the basic is a good starting price for a new gun. went to see the used gran today nice wood and man in feels good, action was not tight at all and my 525 is still a little tight after 1000 shells so who knows how many times it was used but the price of shells would keep down use. how tight are these guns new, and help which one to buy ??? thanks alot mike

Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 241

When did Browning drop these? Why will there be no more? I am sort of out of Browning loop.
Thanks,
16 crazy

Member Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 398 Location: S Fl

Mike,
It boils down to asking yourself what is the primary purpose for this gun. If it's mainly for hunting with an occasional round of clays for practice, I'd say go with the Feather. You'll appreciate carrying less weight whether crossing corn stubble after pheasant or climbing steep slopes for a glimpse of grouse. You can put on a slip-on pad for target work if neccessary.

On the other hand, if it's to be used mostly on the target range with a hunting trip now and then, I think your shoulder will thank you for going with one of the heavier versions. Personally, the "white" receiver does nothing for me, so I'd go with the Gran. It's a handsome piece.

Whatever you decide, let us know.

Pete

Member Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 743

The Citori is a proven design. Whether they're any more durable than the I. Rizzini (FAIR) 16's that Cabela's is now selling for about the same price (the Model 400, that is) . . . well, the FAIRs simply have not been around long enough to establish a track record. If you're looking for light weight, they have the Citori beat in that respect (except the Lightning Feather), and they come with 5 chokes rather than 3--including more open chokes, for games like skeet and for grouse and woodcock hunting. And I prefer their safety, with a selector button in the middle . . . so you can't stick it in the "middle", like you can a Citori.

As far as the sidelock being an inferior design, I'd suggest that it's simply a different design. It's more expensive to produce than a boxlock, but quite frequently, one additional reason a sidelock costs more--when you're talking about "upper end" guns--is that the engraver has a much larger piece of "canvas" on which to do his art work, and good hand engraving ain't cheap. More of it equals more money. Durability . . . if sidelocks were not capable of taking a lot of pounding, then the Brits would not have used them, for well over a century, for driven game shooting. Long before very many people put very many rounds through a shotgun on targets, the British upper class were putting incredible numbers of shells through those guns with an "inferior" design. And the Spanish, who also do quite a bit of driven shooting, have produced copies of the British sidelocks that they use for exactly the same purposes. If the boxlock had an edge in durability over the sidelock, the Brits--who were fully capable of making very expensive boxlocks, as well as sidelocks--would have dropped the sidelock about a century or so ago. Your average British boxlock was a gamekeeper's working tool, and as such did get hard use (much as did many of the basic American boxlocks), just from being toted around the fields and woods etc, but nowhere near the number of rounds through it that the British best guns saw. So it's a sort of "horses for courses" deal. Take a pair of boxlocks, build them to the same specifications (weight, barrel striking etc) as a pair of sidelock game guns, put thousands of rounds through both, and I doubt the boxlocks will prove more durable. But probably not any less durable either.

As for the driven shoots, I've only done it once. Had no idea how I would like it before trying it. Liked it well enough that I'm hoping to do it again, at least once more, before my shooting career ends. Why knock it if you haven't done it (other than for the fact that it's expensive?) Lots of people hunt preserves too, and I can guarantee you--having done both--that shooting driven pheasants is one heck of a lot more challenging proposition than shooting any preserve pheasants I've ever chased, even the best ones, over a dog.

Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 136 Location: ohio

One problem with the side locks is over oiling in the action and having the area around the sideplates which are inlet and hoged out for the locks get oil rotten and weak. Hence the cracking in the wood in this area. Seen many of L.C. Smiths oil soaked and cracked in this weak area. But then again oil has ruined boxlock stocks to. I use cleanseoil very lightly.

Member Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 1522 Location: NH

As pointed out above you need to decide the primary purpose of this gun. I have the Citori Feather in 16 ga. and love it. If hunting is your main reason, go for the Feather. I've even taken mine to the sporting clays range more than once. It is a pure joy to carry in the field when pheasant hunting all day.

I must admit I have not had the Citori out this year yet though. I have been using the Merkel 16 ga. I bought. Contrary to the thoughts above, it fits better, handles better and things like the wood to metal finish are better. It is a better gun. That said, you will never wear out a Citori.

TJC, How much did all that refinement cost you? My question of course is rhetorical. I don't expect you to devulge what you paid for the Merkel. We both know it was considerably higher, like around three times more.

My point was and is that dollar for dollar, the Citori is the best gun for the money. I've shot both. They handle about the same. The Merkel is a tad lighter. Citori swings and tracks better. I shoot better with the Citori. It fits me better. That is a matter of the stock measurements more than anything.

However, if neither gun fit me well, and I had to have the stocks heated and bent to suit, I'd still be dollars ahead with the Citori and would have a gun that shoots every bit as well as a Merkel. It will last as long, and service will be easier to get and cheaper too.

Plus, I really doubt that at days end, either of us could really tell much difference in how tired our arms were from carrying either gun. A few ounces is not that critical in any real sense if we are both healthy adults.

Plus, you cannot call the fit and finish of the Citori shabby either. It is done well enough. I've never seen a bad one, just plainer wood than I'd pay for on some of the higher grades. On the other hand, I've seen some drop dead gorgeous wood on grade III guns, better IMO than some of the GRVI guns. But such an observation is more a personal evaluation than an objective one. Give me the Citori for my money and a whole bunch of shells and componants too for the price of the Merkel. My clay targets will be just as crushed and my game birds just as dead. To each his own.

*Last edited by 16gaugeguy on Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total*

Larry, the matched pair of sidelock doubles is a direct developement of the sidelock precussion double of the late 1820's. Its lineage stems directly from there. The matched pair of guns comes directly from the fact that muzzleloaders were slow to reload. The highly embellished, sidelock double was developed to impress the British royalty and as a symbol of the class they belonged to, as was the driven pheasant shoot. the whole matter is steeped in traditions and codifed behavior that stems directly from the British caste system, a system we Americans rejected in 1776.

It all started with the advent of the well heeled British landed gentry, the newly rich class that enclosure, commercial agriculture, and the English industrial revolution produced. These shoots were put on to curry favor from the royals in the British Parliament. The formal code of behavior that originated at these shoots was so the gentry would know their place in deference to the royal, titled class--right down to the clothes and the guns each shot. the titled lords and earls wore finer, fancier, more colorful clothes and were provided with very finely embellished guns. The gentry who were hosting and paying for these occasions dressed well but less colorfully, mostly subdued earth tones. Their guns, though very well made, were plainer. Plus, one never out shot a titled guest. It just wasn't done. The servents were kept strictly out of sight except for the gun handlers/loaders who were also dressed in a codified attire and were warned to be inconspicuous and silent unless directly addressed, then be briefly polite and no more.

These traditions still live on today in English and Scottish driven shoots. If you like them fine. But please realise that the folks who originated these shoots also brought about such other niceties as the Scottish enclosure which disenfranchised so many commoners from their family lands, the Irish famine, the atrocious Corn Laws under which so many working class English starved in the midst of plenty, the work house/sweat shop, child mine labor, not to mention the squalar of the London slums of the Age of Dickens and Mid-Victorian England. Plus the grand finale, WWI.

As for me, I'll be very satisfied to hunt up my own birds with my own dog, no beaters needed thank you, and my working class boxlock that no English lord would deign to put a hand on lest he be ridiculed by his peers for associating with the lower classes too closely. I'm so glad that our forefathers had the presense of mind to kick these royal twits the hell out of this country. I'm prefectly happy following the American tradition of finding, shooting, cleaning and cooking my own birds. And I'll be free to outshoot anyone I can. Let the better shot prevail. You can have those tradition bound sidelock antiques. I'll keep my trusty, economical, and easy to maintain Citori. The British Aristocracy can kiss my working class patoot. Laughing

Guest

Driven hunts...codified attire.......best guns....aristocracy, but they still can't seem to figure out dental care/hygiene........