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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:09 pm  Reply with quote
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all too true, and so damned funny I'm getting sore from laughing. You ought to write for "Monty Python." Well done sir!
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:51 pm  Reply with quote
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16gaugeguy,
Just an observation from a visit there a few years back, thought you might get a laugh. I DO appreciate their beer though.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:52 am  Reply with quote
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Guy, there was not a lot of driven shooting going on, relatively speaking, until the advent of the breechloader. It was really King Edward (then the Prince of Wales) who was the driving force behind the sport's popularity, and his tenure as "king in waiting" just happened to coincide with the advent of the modern breechloader, shotshells, etc. After all, he had to have something to do (besides chase the ladies, which he also enjoyed) while awaiting his turn on the throne, and he happened to enjoy shooting.

Yes, I agree that there were many flaws in British society at the time. But the fact that the driven shoot has survived is a bit like all the current interest in cowboy action shooting in this country. No one wants to bring back the Old West any more than anyone wants to bring back Victorian England, but preserving the "fun" parts . . . well, it's just plain fun. And today, of course, driven shooting is a business rather than a way to advance onesself in society. I spent a good bit of time with the beaters and the pickers-up when I shot in Scotland. Many of the beaters--virtually all of whom had dogs--were either "rough shooters" themselves, or into trialing, or both. Gave them a chance to work their dogs on a whole lot of birds. Ditto the pickers-up . . . not to mention the fact that they pocketed $40 or $50 for a pretty easy day's work. It's a good way to keep shooting alive in a country where guns and hunting are under constant threat these days. (Notice what happened to fox hunting, not to mention increasingly draconian gun laws.)

As for your Citori in comparison to someone's sidelock best . . . it's not about which one works better. Fact is, they both work. My wife drives a bare bones Ford Focus. Gets her to work just as well as someone else's Mercedes. But if the guy who drives the Mercedes wants to spend the extra money . . . hey, that's what capitalism is all about. And you'd be welcome on a driven shoot with your Citori. The older English doubles are getting . . . well, older and harder to find, and quite a few driven shooters are using modern OU's. As long as you don't show up with a pump or autoloader, you'd do just fine. And the shoot I was on (bag for the day just shy of 300 birds) involved no one shooting a pair of guns, nor did we have loaders. So things have changed a bit since the days of "The Shooting Party". Very similar sport; quite different atmosphere.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:39 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, driven shooting was already an established practice by the end of the first four decades of the 19th Century in the English countryside. The Prince of Wales just made it internationally famous. By that time, communication and travel were easier. Plus, there were a fair number of newly rich Americans from the "guilded age" after the Civil War, who were now hobnobbing with European Royalty.

The English did then what they always manage to do, wrap up a plug in a fancy saddle and blanket and sell it to the social climbers as a finely bred English saddle horse. Laughing They are the best in the world at telling someone to go to hell and making them look forward to the trip. Wink No one can sling it like they can. And no one understands that better than an Irishman or Scot. The Welsh too. We've all been accomodating these Damned English for over a millinia now. Is it true they still refer to the American Revolution" as the "colonial question"? Wink

All things considered, I'm sure driven bird shooting is fun and a far cry from what it once was. So is England. I'm just poking fun at you guys with your "fancy pants guns", because its easy to get you going and fun to watch. Its the "Irish Imp" in me. Its kind of like hollering "fight" in a crowded pub, then ducking under a table to watch the festivities Laughing .

It doesn't really matter what gun a guy shoots, as long as he or she too can kill the bird clean. That is what matters most when hunting. And if I show up at a driven shoot with a good old "American pump" it would be because its the best tool for me. But we both know I like the 16 ga. Citori. Have I told you that? Well then let me make it clear..... Wink Laughing Have a great Thanksgiving Larry, and everyone else too.
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dcat
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:01 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 23 Nov 2005
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Larry Brown wrote:
...As long as you don't show up with a pump or autoloader, you'd do just fine. And the shoot I was on (bag for the day just shy of 300 birds) involved no one shooting a pair of guns, nor did we have loaders. So things have changed a bit since the days of "The Shooting Party". Very similar sport; quite different atmosphere.


Don't like the way my post read. So please allow me to restate in a better way...

I do not understand the objection to pumps and/or autos and do not care to shoot in events or hunts where those are excluded or looked down upon.

Likewise, I do not care to participate in events where one's dress or "station" is evaluated.

I lived in England briefly years ago. While I love the history and the culture, I did not and do not care a whit for the class structure that at least was then so much a part of their life.

Cheers


Last edited by dcat on Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mfm22
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:09 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Nov 2005
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It looks like this thread has unraveled. thanks for the info , and some history lessons mike
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Birdswatter
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:18 pm  Reply with quote
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mfm22,
That did start on a downward spiral, didn't it? Sorry for the digressions, but they were interesting, at least until the end there.

Bottom line in my opinion is, you can't go wrong with a Citori and if it's a Gran Lightning, that is even better in my book. Citoris are very tight when new (at least mine were), and take quite a bit of use to break in. So if I were looking at a Citori that seemed loose, I would consider it as having been used considerably more than a couple of boxes of shells. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I have not noticed the varience in action tightness on a new gun with Brownings that seems so evident in Berettas. I have looked at brand new Berettas in the same model that went from almost falling open to being very tight. That indicates poor quality control to me. Never found that in a Browning Citori. Again, this is just my personal opinion based on observations and I'm sure someone who loves Berettas will come storming forward. Good luck with whatever you decide on. Wink
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:26 am  Reply with quote
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Interesting discussion. Driven shooting, or wingshooting of any kind, didn't work all that well until the percussion cap came along. If you've ever watched anyone shoot a flintlock, you'd understand why. You have to lead the bird not only because of the speed the bird is moving, but because of the delay between pulling the trigger and getting ignition. I'll bet the skeet scores went up a whole lot when they switched from flintlock to percussion!Smile And it wasn't until self-contained shotshells and breechloaders came along that the shoots really became popular, because of the ease of reloading. Even with a pair of guns, you can have a heck of a lot of birds fly over you during the interval that you're filling up a front-stuffer.

Jack O'Connor wrote about shooting driven birds with a Model 21. The Brits thought it was on the heavy side for a "gamegun", but it was perfectly acceptable, American and heavy or not, because it was a double. The double vs pump or auto thing is simply the way it's done over there. You don't show up wearing blaze orange on a driven shoot in Britain; you don't show up wearing breeks and tweeds if you're pheasant hunting with me in Iowa. When in Rome . . . and there are safety considerations to the "no pumps or autos" rule as well. Very easy to see if a gun is safe if it's broken open, somewhat harder with pumps and autos, and you've got shooters on both sides of you. Expect if they shot skeet and trap as much with pumps and autos as we do, and got used to the "open or out" rule, they might be more accommodating on that score. But you can reload a double a whole lot quicker, even if you're doing it yourself, which can come in real handy in driven shooting.

I did my driven shooting in Scotland, and those clever Scots have figured out how to make money off their neighbors to the south. Good for them! Sparser population, more open country . . . sort of like why pheasant hunting works better out my way than it does back East, where you've got too many people, not as much open space, and far more people that don't like guns. (My own heritage is Scottish, Irish, and English . . . so I can pick on all 3. German as well, which means I don't mind picking on the Brits and the French!)

Guy, I expect your Citori is as good a tool as my Greener 16, although my Greener has about 50 years on your Citori and is still going strong. Had it put back on face shortly after I bought it (knew it was a bit loose at the time), not a problem since then, thousands of rounds later. Interestingly enough, it's a gun that I KNOW was built expressly for driven birds because it's marked #1 of a pair. I'd guess bought by some Brit in the between the wars years for some lucky son. 16's were mainly for women and youngsters over there, but the original LOP was pretty long for a woman. Not one of Greener's higher grade guns, modest engraving, but it has a tang safety rather than the infamous Greener side safety, and no crossbolt.
And it's a standard A&D boxlock rather than a sidelock. Guess the old man didn't want to spoil the kid too much!
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fowler
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:52 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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The biggest reason I sold my Citori was the safety selector . In its H platform of selecting barrels and safety. It was always moving in heavy brush and multi-rose bush. Every time I looked at it it was moved and safety off. I thought it was unsafe and troublesome. I had it checked and all was good detent spring and all. The Smith told me its a common problem with this set-up of Browning and some other OU,s One Time on A wild flushing Grouse I and split my thumb nail on the opening lever in the heat of the battle with the selector on the wrong barrel and safetly off.. I was informed by the smith the this OU set-up was ok for clays and driven pheashant in the open and for those who don,t really get in the bush. But for the most positive safety and barrel selection the SXS with double triggers and simple on -off thumb safety is the best. I have found this to be correct the problem of wandering barrels and safety of the Browning type on the Citori. The SxS game gun had this problem fixed over a 135 years ago. ANd the M-37 Ithaca does not suffer from this safety fault too. I have used both many years without wandering safety problems or selector troubles in the SxS.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:12 am  Reply with quote
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Larry, you are correct on the percussion vs, flintlock lock time. However, double barreled percussion shotguns were well established in England by the late 1830's and early 1840's and reached the peak of perfection by the 1840's. I've held and fired some of these guns. The lock time is about as good as a modern gun with the proper cap and charge. Without a doubt, the English percussion game gun is the finest and most refined of any that were ever made. They are marvels of design and handle as well as any modern double too. Properly loaded, they'll reliablely kill to 40 yards. Most early ones were about 12 bore (.775 cal) , although 14 bore double ( .720-.725 bore) was easier to shoot being lighter and became very popular later on. It is the origin of today's breech loading 12 ga.

The gentry also employed gun handler/loaders to keep thier pieces ready. The common practice was to shoot the right barrel first, then hand the gun to the loader for recharging. That way, at least three shots were held in reserve for the occasional flurry of birds that could fly over the shooters station. Plus, double charging a barrel in the heat of the shoot was far less likely.

The loader would put the gun's rammer or a stick in the charged barrel and use a special longer loading rammer with a combination swab/brush/jag to clear the fouling in one pass. A good loader could charge a barrel in less than 30 seconds. Choke was not an issue with these guns since all were cylinder choke. The load itself was how they regulated patterns. That is still the traditional order of firing today and is the reason the right barrel is usually the more open one. Although some modern driven bird guns have a reverse order to allow for incomers more readily. That is a matter of personal preferance. Most just select the proper trigger.

English pheasant were introduced to the island by the Norman lords in the late 10th century from the Black Sea area. These bird were already established in France and Normandy. They were strictly reserved for the nobles who hunted them with dogs, the forerunner of the Britteny, and a throw net. The commoner caught with one was risking his life and certainly his liberty. That is where the word poacher comes from. The art of netting these birds with a throw net was called pouching. They became very scarse to extinct by the late 17th century from the increased practice of enclosure, sheep farming, and market agriculture. Plus they were overhunted using pointing dogs and throw nets in the areas they still existed.

By the late 18th century, the English pheasant had been crossed with the wilder, hardier, and aparently smarter Chinese and the Japanese Green pheasant obtained as a result of the East India tea trade and the ensuing Asian market trade. The resulting bird is today's common ringneck. A hardy, savvy, bird that is more apt to run than sit pat and be netted. By the early 1820's and 30's these hybred birds had estabished themselves all over the island in very huntable numbers. However, traditional hunting techniques did not work well.

With the advent of the percussion cap in the early 1800's, and the resulting percussion gun, wingshooting became a viable way of hunting these birds. However, getting them to stay put under a dog's nose was still tough. The flushing spanial was the anwser for rough shooting, and driven birds was the answer for large party shooting. Hense we now have the English system of hunting these birds so loved by the British.

The Birmingham boxlock is still a marvel of design. The son's father is or was a wise and savvy gun trader, and I'll bet his boy is too. You've done well to aviod the problematic sidelock. I also notice the average Yankee double is by built as a boxlock. After all, we Americans learned the trade from the common English who are the best in the world at dealing with the English nobility. The best way is to simply nod politely, ignore their nonsense, and do the smart thing once they've passed by. Wink Only a bigger fool copies the silly behavior of a well dressed one. "Up jumps a Guinea, out shoots six pence, and down comes half a crown." 19th century English saying about the cost of hunting pheasant.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:45 am  Reply with quote
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Fowler, familiarity with the workings of any gun is one of the keys to shooting it well. I've been using the Browning selector/safety for so long now that it is second nature. I just keep it to the right and back. A quick flick of my right thumb as I mount and swing is all that I've ever needed and is the most ergonomical way since the right thumb pushes slightly left and steers the selector to the right and foreward naturally. In the rare case that I need the tighter barrel, I've usually determined that well ahead of time like on the odd incoming bird.

Could it be that your gunsmith is only telling you what he knows you'd like to hear. I'd call that smart business, since I've found that in unimportant matters, "the customer is always right." This is not meant to trivialize your apperant difficulty with the system. However, most folks adapt to it very well after some practice. However, from long term practical experience and shared knowledge, you are among the small minority who have had such difficulty. To each his own.
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:09 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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Tryed a few with the same set-up. The brush moves them, the only way I found to carry this Browning H pattern saftey is to keep it covered with your hand to protect the selector -safety from moving. Its not what the smith says ,but hunting many times in the thick Grouse bush terrian that Ruff calls home. Going through tunnels of multi-rose in the spoil banks. Sometimes you have to poke the gun through the brush and I can not keep the saftey selector protected all the time. Like I said I liked the Citori,but the SXS double trigger gives me no problems like the OU,s with the safety selector thumb set-up. Had the same problem with hunting rabbits with the beagle in thick brush the OU selector was allways getting bumped off and barrels selector moving. THe smith imformed me he has heard of this problem many times over in thick brush over his 40 some years in gunsmithing.And yes a factory repair for any top brands. If it works for your hunting that is good, but it does not in my terrian.
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:20 am  Reply with quote



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16 ga. guy . I am a big fan of early Flint fowlers 1750 era. I hunt with them too. I have made 3 -20ga. in French and english patterns flint. At present I have a Colonial English Flint 12 bore fowler 44" barrel that is lite and points like radar. A early bird gun that was used on both sides of the pond. And yes with the right loading combo and shot size good to 40yards. My pet project will be a 16ga. flint fowler stocked in blk. walnut of course hand oil rubbed like the rest. THe flint English fowler are great hunting guns. If I could get some 16 ga. double barrels made I would make a flint double gun in english pattern. That makes me break out in a cold sweat.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:53 pm  Reply with quote
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Of course, the flint-lock and its forerunner, the snap haunce, pre-date the percussion double by several centuries. The flint-lock can be tuned to a fairly short locktime, but generally requires constant attention to remain so due to the natural wear on the frizzen face and the flint itself. Plus, regardless of any claims to the contrary, no flintlock gun in the world could ever have the near instant and more consistant locktime of the mid-19th century precussion gun. It is just not possible. The fastest firing flintlocks ever designed were built right in this country by the Pennsylvanian and Maryland gunsmiths of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Nearly all were rifles.

Even the bigger, hotter, and more easily handled "top hat" percussion cap owes much of its origin to the percussion game gun, and the quest for quick and reliable ignition as well as quick and convenient reloading. The military adopted it after it was developed for the shotgun and did not develop it themselves as commonly held.

Shooting a well designed percussion smoothbore for wingshooting is not much different from shooting a well designed breech loader. The difference in locktime between the two, from cap detonation to the charge exiting the bore, can be measured in a few thousandths of a second---certainly not enough to throw a good wingshot off. However, the much longer and less consistant flint ignition time requires much practice and constant attention to master. Very few can wingshoot consistantly with a flintlock. A double barreled flint lock was a very rare gun indeed. It was meant for protection and not sport. Nearly all fowling pieces were single barreled guns.

The common way to hunt birds with flintlock smooth bores was to shoot them from the roost. Pheasants roost in trees and normally don't alight for the day until sometime after dawn. The most common way to hunt them was to locate a roosting tree, get there very early, and shoot a couple or three of closely roosted birds with one shot. It was done more for the table than as sport. The other was to take them on the ground if possible. Here in America, turkeys were commonly hunted the same way.

Until the advent of the percussion gun, wingshooting was a stunt. However, once it became clear that a well designed precussion lock made it fairly easy and reliably possible, the English gentry quickly took up the practice and even helped open wing shooting schools to teach their sons and daughters the practice.

This idea of wing shooting schools of course was kept as a practice for the wealthy, just like riding schools. The tuition alone made it nearly impossible for the common working class to attend, let alone the upkeep of a fine collection of shotguns and a place to hunt. That is a one of the reasons such shooting schools demand high fees today--tradition.

Some of these schools are well over a century old. In fact, some of them resulted in the founding of several of the great shotgun houses still established in London, Birmingham, and several Scottish cities. Several of these firms not only still provide fine guns, but instruction for the client in their use. Plus, they also tend to dominate the business of organized hunts like driven bird shoots. they also lease hunting rights all over the British isles. so in England, hunting is very much for the rich.

Things are far different across the pond. We Americans tend to shun wingshooting schools. Why would anyone in their right mind want to pay big bucks for instruction that is readily available for low cost at your local skeet or trap club. Sure, there are high paid instructers available--some good, some there for the money. But I've found that watching a competant shot shoot the game, and asking a few informed questions from a knowledgeable shooter will get you on your way. Plus, there are books and films about shotgunning available at fairly reasonable cost.

Most good gun club members are more than happy to help a new shooter along, particularly a youngster. Its the way things are done in our friendly and openhanded society. In America, we are all considered middle class, even the well off. We tend to share knowledge and skills. That is why we are the best in the world. I hope things never become too English in America. I like my fellow Americans just fine the way we are.

PS, we now have far more pheasant available for hunting too, its cheaper, and more fun over here--even in New England. My season has been just fine thank you, regardless of commerly held impressions. Wink
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:35 pm  Reply with quote



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Now I,m getting off the 16ga. platform talking of flint fowlers. They are fast and a well tuned one will fire in 100,s of a second. We shoot trap with flint and its a hoot! At the National Muzzleloading shoot in Friendship Ind. there are those who will break 25 out of 25 most of the time with flint and cap lock. When you get game with one its a good feeling and takes you back to days of old. The English wrote the book on wing shooting . Check out www.muzzleloadermag.com,thay have a new book out on Flint fowlers and a good chat room. BAck to today and the 16ga.
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