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16crazy
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:29 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 240

I have seen some posts about Spanish guns and wanted to share my long but shallow experiences with them. In general you may not get what you pay for.
My first Spanish double was an American Arms Derby. This was the first year of production and came with double triggers. Mine is a 3" 12 gauge (sorry) 26 inch barrels. I shot that gun non stop for almost 10 years. The gun killed most feathered game in this state and broke all sorts of clays. I fired a healthy amount of steel shot in the gun. Well I still own the gun and still love it. The Derby never ever failed in any way. Cost $599 on markdown. I wish I had bought a mate. Best bargin sidelock ejector ever made, IMHO.
Somewhat later I picked up a Bill Hanus Birdgun in 16 gauge, over course. This was when it came with a fitted case and a case of nickle plated Fiocchi shells. I shot lots of game with it and skeet and sporting clays. Several thousand rounds later it was a 100% success rate. No issues, ever. Cost $1595
A few years later I was firmly convinced with the quality of Spanish guns. I was fit with a try gun and ordered an AYA#2. After almost going 16 I decided on 12, sorry. After a long wait, my gun came. The gun is lovely and as close to a London Best as I will ever get. But... it fails to go off ever time. Called my dealer and he had me send it to Jack Rowe. At the time AYA had a 5 year warranty. The smithing was free but shipping and insurance was not. So I get the gun back and it still doesn't go bang every time!!!! Called Jack and he said I fired it with Fiocchi ammo, try that. Well I do not want a gun that I can only fire one brand of ammo in so I have found another British trained gunsmith. Talked to the dealer and he said," Good doubles are like race cars they can need some tweaking". Not to sure about that but total cost $4000 and maybe more with added gunsmithing.
You do not get what you pay for!!!
16 crazy
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fowler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:21 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

Never tryed the AYA,but its a pricey shotgun now a days. I have only tryed the the Spanish Uggie and they have both been 100% reliable with good patterns. I had a Parker Trogan and it was 100%,but I had A Fox sterlingworth that was troublesome in many ways. I had a Bakial and it was 100% and so was a Stoeger from brazil in 16 that was 100%. Allso I had a J.P Sauer that was troublesome.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:22 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 6535
Location: massachusetts

I've owned only one Spanish double. It is a 1960 AyA Matador. That is or was an entry level gun for the US market. It has the single selective trigger and selective ejecters that were so troublesome in the guns made in 1955 to 1957. However, my gun's work just fine. What really impresses me about this gun is how well the barrels are regulated for POI. They shoot to the same spot very closely.

I have been told that this matter of POI is and always has been one of the strong points of the AyA guns. I've belonged to a number of shooting clubs in a number of states over the years. I've had the opportunity to shoot a fair number of inexpensive, entry level double barreled shotguns belonging to friends and aquaintances. Plus, I worked the Florida gun show circuit for years too and got to examine and shoot a lot of traded guns both O/U and SxS. I can say that many left much to be desired in this matter of barrel regulation. Even the old US trade guns from Meriden, CT. exhibited this problem, which is what really seperated them from the Parkers, Foxes, L C Smith, and Ithaca doubles. You get what you pay for. This has always held true when it comes to double guns.

Sticky triggers and/or inconsistant ignition, although a pain, are easy to fix if you have access to a COMPETANT GUNSMITH and some patience. Sometimes its a stock wood problem due to swelling and shrinkage. This can be tricky to diagnoss but not hard to fix once the problem is clear. Poorly regulated barrels are not. A gun that won't place both patterns within a few inches of each other is one that will not kill cleanly at a time when you need it most, the second and finishing shot on a poorly hit bird. Plus, most inexpensive gun importers do not quarentee this matter of POI and will often leave the owner to prove the problem to the manufacturer. This can be a long and futile exersize in frustration.

If and when you buy an entry level double gun, please examine the bores carefully and if you can, have them collimated for POI. Plus, get an assurance that if the barrels shoot poorly, you will have recourse. Otherwise, you are buying a single shot with an appendage you can store stuff in but not shoot well. Better still, bypass the cheapies and get a good one from a company with a proven track record and reputation for backing up their product. Otherwise you are gambling $1250 or more when another 50-75% more might make all the difference between well made gun and another traded off used bargain with crosseyed barrels at your expense.
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fowler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:55 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

With all brands even the very good ones a lemon pops up a small % of the time. I hope your AYA is working good now and that AYA made good there fine product. THe first AYA I seen was a Sears and Roebuck Ted Williams marked Matador back in the late 60,s. They are in the custom Best class now. My how SXS,s cost today. Some over $100,000. And some Classic old ones near and over that. I.ll stick with the field grade working mans SXS. $1000-$2000 is alot of money for me for a shotgun. But I like the balance and feel of a good double gun.
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:58 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 265

Check out this thread about Spanish guns Confused



http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/viewtopic.php?t=25530
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fowler
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:41 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

I too prefer the sturdy boxlock action over the sideplate guns. For hunting and endurance the boxlock is alot more trouble free. One that comes to mind was a cheap old Fox mod -B single trigger 16 ga. It was dragged beat with barb-wire ,frozen,barn gun that allways worked. Let her go and wish I had her back. I still think the Uggie Mod -30 is better made Than the American lower guns and very servicable in the field. A good gun for the $$
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:15 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Brian,
How come you didn't jump into the fray? From what I could gather, no-one posting had the experience with as many different kinds of Spanish guns as you have!

I've never owned a Spanish gun of any type. But, to be fair, my Darnes, and Tobins, don't have ejectors, per say, or single triggers, which seem to be the things most often complained about in the Spanish guns.

My Tobins are SO old, that, I always expect a bit of trouble with them out in the field. But, I can say, that hasn't been the case-the 16 was cleaned up, a few little problems put to rest, restocked, and put back into service. I left the slightly chewed up screws in place to keep it a using gun, not a closet queen. I do baby it just a bit, but, it was my go-to gun on a memorable S Dakota pheasant trip with truly nasty weather, including a freezing rain storm that left everyone's gun encased in ice.

I have a 12 Tobin that is undergoing some fix up-a shim was soldered on the hook to take up some slack in the joint, and I will refinish the stock and repair
a crack in same. No rebluing. Just an honest shooter. My plan is to use it for trap (FXF Chokes in 30" tubes) or, really nice weather pheasant hunting with Winchester Featherlites, just to be different. That pretty much sums up using an old American double of any sort, doesn't it?

My Darnes have, so far, been used as "no excuses, birds must die in any weather, with zero gun problems" hunting appliances. Even the pretty one, I consider a tool, and both are a bit nicked up. No problems, so far.

No doubt about it-no post brings out both sides more heatedly than one on the merits, or lack of same, in Spanish duplications of English ideas in sporting shotguns.
Best,
Ted
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Brian Meckler
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:33 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 265

Ted,

I no longer post on that web site. Every time I posted an opinion I was attacked. 16 gauge people are not only smarter they are more civilized as well. I doubt I am missed. They really have a strange dichotomy going on over there anyway.

Today the Bruchet- Darne R-16 pulled a 10 bird limit on California quail. Not one bird had a flicker of life left in it after the trigger got pulled. I have no idea how reliable the gun is however because today I never got to the rear trigger!!

I was so upset with myself this morning. I was going to post a picture with my funny looking Darne and my even funnier looking whisker laden dog but I forgot the camera along with my quail call!!!
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budrichard
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:27 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 446
Location: Wisconsin

As Ted and Brian know my experience with Spanish guns is quite limited. I owned an AyA 16 gauge #2 two barrel set for about 1 day even though i never saw it or took delivery. AyA sent the wrong action and couldn't care less that i had waited 14 months for the gun and wanted to charge me new prices to re-order. I demanded and got my money back. The long time incestuous relationship between Aya and the Importer did not allow me to purchase the gun at a discount (the gun was damaged in shipping to Jack Rowe and I had had it by then!) After listening to Brian and others experiences, I decided that Spanish guns were not for me as they were inconsistant and it was a sellers market. A 16 gauge Bruchet/Darne from Ted reinforced that opinion. -Dick
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Ted Schefelbein
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:30 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 1480
Location: Mpls, MN.

Brian,
Attacked, eh? Wow. I'd be willing to bet someone who did that would be a lot kinder in person, with the biking, martial arts practice, fire-fighting, and outdoor stuff you do to keep healthy-maybe they were just jealous of your skateboard!

(To the board at large, Brian has owned bespoke shotguns by just about every Spanish maker, and I consider his opinion on same worth it's weight in gold.I go to him when I have a question about them.)

I'm pretty certain the second shot will be waiting for you in the Bruchet 16 when you need it. Dick could report to us on the Bruchet single trigger performance (which, I would expect to be flawless) but, he is the only one in the western hemisphere who can.

A limited sampling, for sure. Funny, how popular 16 gauge has been in the Bruchet Darne guns the last few years.

Happy Thanksgiving, guys!
Best,
Ted
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fowler
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

Besides the few who have tryed the spanish guns is there anybody else who has had a postive Spanish gun ? The Darnes have a following here. What are thay French ?
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budrichard
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:19 am  Reply with quote
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Darnes are indeed French. My first an R10 12 gauge was purchased in 1975. I susequently puchased an R10 20 gauge and then the Bruchet/Darne from Ted. Last was a R15 12 gauge. The Bruchet/Darne has double triggers but the front trigger will fire the barrels sequentially. Works great! With SST guns I NEVER use the barrel selection on a flushing bird but just fire. This type of double trigger is so fast with a Darne that my son and brother in law are just getting there guns mounted when the Darne goes off over pointed birds. Pretty imperrisve for an old guy! Darnes are light, mount quickly and just point where I want. The only negative is the odd safety placement but after 30+ years, you get used to it.-Dick
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Jim McCann
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:26 pm  Reply with quote
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Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 18
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

I've been hunting hard here in Alaska during all types of weather with an Arietta 16 for about 7 years now. Not a single problem with this gun. I used to refer to this gun as the "Arctic Cockatrice" because I couldn't seem to miss very often with it. But I've gotten sloppy lately and I have missed a lot of grouse. No fault of the gun, only the shooter! Very Happy

I would buy another Spanish sidelock. I'm looking at Grulla for my next gun only because I already own a Merkel 1620.

Jim
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:28 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

I bought one of those terrible cheap Spanish 1980s doubles that every one hates but I loved mine. It was imported by Richland Arms and has 22" barrels in 20ga. Both barrels pattered well to the same POI and it was a game killing machine in the brush. In twenty years of hard Missouri brush hunting the only thing that broke was the stock and that was my fault. My son out grew his 410 and has laid claim to my Spanish double. Got his first bunny in thick cover yesterday. I've moved up to all 16ga now I don't shoot as well as I once did and need all the help a 16ga can give me.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:15 pm  Reply with quote
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Here, here on the boxlock. They are far more trouble free if made well. I wish I could say that every one has been made so. As far as who makes the best ones, I'd say Americans used to but the Japanese have been showing the rest of the world how its done in modern times, and doing it with some of the best steel in the business. I'm talking about affordable, mass produced guns of course.

Cheap guns, aside from the rare severely underpriced bargain, are so because they are cheaply made. Some individual ones are made correctly, but its more a matter of chance than design. Further, a lot of cheap ones will not hold up well to the amount of shooting it takes to become solidly familiar with the gun and a truely skilled shot. Strong hard steel takes stronger, harder, much more expensive, and more frequently replaced tooling to cut and shape it. Softer steel is cheaper to work but not nearly as durable. nothing can change this. This is most important for hinged breech loaders of any make. A gun that won't stay sufficiently tight and on face is not the best gun, regardless of any claims to the contrary, and no matter how light or quick it is, or how nicely the engraving was done, how pretty the wood is, or where its locks are located. I've no doubt my AyA will ever stay as snug as long as my Miroku guns, given the same amount of use. Its steel is just not as durable.

Not all expensive guns are well made either. Many a gussied up piece of junk has been foisted of on the uninformed, the unwary, and the social climber. Older, antiquated designs will not serve as well or as long as well designed modern pieces. Progress does have its benifits. No amount of nostalgia will change that.

The finely made custom gun which will stand up to the test of time and frequent use can be made only by the best craftsman from the best parts and materials, and from the best design. This not now, nor ever has been a matter of nationality or race but of knowledge, ability and commitment to one's art. Some of the best are now being made again right here in New England. but they are very expensive. I will not ever own one. However, My Citori serves my every hunting need as well as those needs need be filled, Wink and at a price I can afford. It is sufficient to the task. it is also made of a steel that will be doing it long after I am dust. I've seen far too many old Miroku trap and skeet guns with hunderds of thousands of rounds through them and many more to come to doubt this.

As far as which gun shoots the fastest? Fast enough is just that. I've clobbered my fair share of snipe, dove, and pats to know that the small framed Miroku guns do just fine. So does the Remington LT-20, or any reliable and sufficiently light gun that fits the shooter well. Once the gun fits well, its simply a matter of developed skill more than anything.

Hitting the station 8 high or low house skeet target from low gun start before it passes the middle post is a good test of shooting speed. I doubt there's a game bird alive thats realistically quicker through that window of opportunity. I can do it 95% of the time. I've seen better.

I would say that all other things considered and equal, its always the indian and not the arrow that does the deed. Guns are tools. Shooting is skill. A tool sufficient to the job will always do the best job in the hands of the best craftsman. The best tool in the world will not get her done in the hands of the unpracticed. Money will not buy proficiency. Only the proper knowledge, time, and practice will do that. Money unwisely spent will not buy a well made gun either. Buyer beware is still the rule.
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