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Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 136 Location: ohio

Its not the hammer ,but the carpenter! Ah but we all want the best hammer we can afford. Just as in cars a Focus will get you from A to B. But a Jag will do it with more class. And the end result is the same you went from A to B. As with guns I fall in between and drive a Mazda -6. We can dream of a Aston Marton or a Holland-Holland SXS. And some the Puegot and Darne. Ah 16ga, it performs like the Aston Marton.

Joined: 19 Jun 2004 Posts: 1480 Location: Mpls, MN.

Well, I'm not running around looking at Franch cars, anyway...

I spent Sunday in Pine county MN, seeking Ruffed Grouse for the first time this season-being a newlywed, with a new job, has been in the way of hunting this year, and the dog and I have missed it much. Inspite of all the negative press about grouse counts being down, my two friends and I, and our two dogs moved about 20 birds. Some were no doubt the same birds moved twice, and they were spooky, and flushing a bit wild in front of the dogs, but, a better day afield I haven't had in quite some time. The day started out with freezing rain, which changed to the non frozen variety later. We were wet, cold, and thrilled to the bone.

Conditions like this called for my grouse special, a Darne R10, with Darne sling, firing a rather stout load of Eley 6s. The gun was soaked through, and the sling and gun are dismantled, and drying as we speak. I'll soak the breech block later, and reassemble the gun. Of course, there are no problems. I never bring two guns along when I have my Darne along.

Grouse for dinner tonight.
Best,
Ted

Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 7

Well,I currently own 2 Spanish guns,an AYA model 433?SxS in 12 ga and a pretty little Zabala english style 28 ga.Both have survived thousands of rounds without problem one.I believe spanish QC is probably spotty and sometimes you get a bad one.

Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 241

steingauge,
I agree with you about QC in Spanish guns. My America Arms Derby has seen thousands of rounds all trouble free. Same goes for my Bill Hanus Birdgun. The AYA #2 is a different story.
I still will not swear off Spanish guns but I would only buy with a 3 day inspection that includes shooting. If you run 100 rounds of ammo in the gun.If that offers no problem I doubt one would arise soon.
BTW I would hate to have the argument about reloads during the 3 day inspection. I would buy 4 boxes of Factory Remington, Win AA or other standard clays target ammo.
Lastly I see one major AYA importer is offering as an option a $150 inspection to be sure all is well with the new your new gun. Maybe money well spent but....... Does one really have to spend extra to be sure their new $5000 gun works?
16 crazy

I own but one Spanish gun, an AyA Matador 1960 gun. I performed a discrete file test on a corner of the barrels' water table. I then performed the same test on the underside corner of the barrel block on an older Citori 12 ga I use for a bad weather gun. It is certainly not a scientific test, but the results showed the steel in the AyA does not stand up to the file as well as that of the Citori.

I've heard many times that the steel used in Spanish guns (not including the Kemen) is somewhat softer than other guns and can vary somewhat more. This info comes from professionals who work on these guns doing repair jobs and barrel modifications like choke corrections and reregulating pattern POI. My file test doesn't refute what they say either.

Perhaps things will change now that Spain is part of the EU. However, the people in the Spanish gun making region have always tended to be independent and self-reliant. They usually do not take kindly to what they would most likely see as bureaucratic interfereance and have been known to react violently to government policies they don't like.

The AyA shoots and handles well for me. But I doubt it would stand up to constant recreational skeet shooting if the steel is not so tough as others. So, I'll either trade it off while it is still tight or before something breaks, or use it for occasional use and hunting.

I've also taken quite a few used spanish doubles and O/Us in trade at Florida guns shows in years past, like Sarasesquetas, and American import house guns made by many of the major Spanish makers under a different lable. These of course, were not high end Spanish guns, but basic models.

Most were servicable, but lacked the solid feel of other, better made guns. I also passed on the ones with problems. There appeared to be a higher percentage of problems than other makes too--things like weak sounding and feeling strikers, sloppy barrel fit, widely different or nonconcentric bore diameters, tight, loose or rouch looking chambers, poor extraction,/ejection, sloppy feeling triggers, poorly operating or sloppy feeling safeties, too short, too long, or ragged looking firing pin noses, rough, gouged out looking machining recesses, rough looking fences, etc, etc,. All this appeared to add up to a lack of pride and attention to detail not seen in any Japanese or most Italian guns of the same price class.

Plus, back then, the Spanish guns did not command the prices they seem to today in comparison to other makes. Some spanish import guns have a better overall finish, but I can't say I've seen a big difference in the basic quality of the major componants from then to now--certainly not enough to justify closing the gap between the prices in comparison to other, better made basic guns.

As a rule of thumb, I've found that if the workmanship in certain maker's low end guns are not as good as another's, the fancier high end guns won't be either, regardless of price. Common sense would tell me that the basic steel and the machining on the major componants will be of the same quality and workmenship, done by the same work force. A better blue job, more and better engraving, higher grade wood and a better checkering job are just on th surface. The bare bones parts are what makes the gun servicable and rugged. Those parts must be well made, properly fitted and assembled, and of good quality steel. Close enough is not always good enough if a gun is to have a reasonable and trouble free service life.

Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 136 Location: ohio

Glad to see you put up so many grouse. Deer camp the last 3 days put up 6 grouse in Ohio. As far as steel goes my Spanish Uggies are modern hi-grade steel with the right hardness. That old 60,s Matador AYA is on the soft side. They were enrty level guns ,but servicable. The new made Best Class Spanish guns are real good. Back in the 60,s the Spanish guns were akin to Chinese,Russian,Turkish,Brazilian guns of today. But now the Spanish better Best guns are world class. Not middle guns like the Browning , Rem. Winchester bread and butter guns.

Now wait a minute there! What do you mean by middle? I mean there is middle and then there is middle. Do you mean lower middle, middle middle, or upper middle. You need to be specific here. Laughing

That is good to hear about the steel in Spanish guns. However, the modern Miroku O/U guns have steel as good as the present Perazzi and Kriegoff guns and an excellent reputation for dependability. I know they are widely used for sport shooting in England, France, and even Germany. We both know they are extremely popular here in the States.

I'd have to say that the E U has had a good influence here. My guess is that in order to be sold in that market, these Spanish guns must now have to meet more stringent strength (proof) requirements. So everyone else benifits worldwide.

Miroku guns have been very popular in Europe for a while now. Its nice to see the Spanish guns are catching up. Its about time. Now if they can clear up their reputation for spotty quality control , they'd really deserve the trust you so generously put in them. However, that will take time for a lot of folks who've been unhappy with them, especially after spending big bucks on the gun and more to get it to function reliably.

Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Bend, OR

My fist double and the one I use most is an AYA #453, in 16 ga. I bought it about 7 years ago and have had no trouble of any kind. My only regret is that I did not spend the extra $135 to get 30" barrels, instead of 28".

Jim

The 453 AyA is based on the basic AyA boxlock they've been making for over a half a century at least. It is a good and proven design. I've not heard of any severe problems with these guns. However, at 2.6 to 2.7k or more, they are expensive for what is offered in relationship to other comparable boxlocks, and in the past, the steel used could vary in quality and hardness. Plus, there seem to be more "little bugs" to work out than guns from other, less expensive, but more quality concious makers. On top of that, AyA is not a commonly known mainstream name in this country. However, it is easily the best known of all the Spanish shotgun makers I'd wager. Nor do these guns hold their value as well or appreciate in value as rapidly as other comparable guns like the Model 23, the Parker Repro, the BSS, or the SKB double gun have.

Based on what I've gleaned from the comments of buyers of the higher priced spanish "best guns" small problems do crop up with regular frequency--more so it would seem than from the boxlocks. Some of these guns cost well over 10K. This shows an uunacceptable lack of attention to quality control.

I think that if I was to spend over 2k, let alone 5 or 6k or more for a new gun, and something wasn't right, I'd be p'd off to no end. As the maker, I'd be embarressed to no end.

But it seems the Spanish makers take all this with a grain of salt as the normal state of affairs. I guess they figure that if one can afford to spend that much on a gun, he can also afford to have it corrected by a good gunsmith as well as put up with the gun's idiosyncrasies., like functioning reliably only with certain loads, etc.

To me, that is crazy. Such a company would not last a decade in the states. The customers would run them out of business. So too with Japanese makers which have come to be regarded as the best in the world for solid QC at a decent price.

If such were not true, names like Toyota would not be household words in the US. So it is with Browning/Miroku guns at any mainstream US gun club you could pick. Their name is commonly known, and their reputation is excellent, nearly flawless. Plus you can have the gun at about half the price for an AyA with similar features.

Plus, there are a lot less common US gun people who would know the names like AyA, Ugartechea, Grulla, Arrietta, etc. So, to my mind, things don't add up yet for the Spanish gun makers. That will not happen until the market responds more positively to them as a whole. Gun wholesalers have yet to trust the source enough. Shop owners generally don't stock risky or unproven merchandise. Buyers as a whole will always spend their money safely and wisely for the most part, from what they can readily get at the best price.

You are fortunate to have a trouble free AyA shotgun. However, I would not spend that kind of money on a gun until I heard nothing but good about the brand from any gun buyer I might ask. Such is not yet the case with Spanish made guns. Not yet. They still have a ways to go to get my trust and my money. I'm certain my opinion is a very common one, being from among the common folk here in the US, a fact that I am very proud of too.

By the way, as a point of fact, the AyA Matador I own was given to me by an older aquaintence. He didn't think it was worth the trouble to try and sell, because he got it many years ago at next to nothing. So far, it has been a trouble free gun. but I've heard the triggers on them can be troublesome, and the steel in them is somewhat softer than a lot of other guns. I do know I would not have spent much on one if I was going to buy one.

That is probably very unlikely too. I'd go get a new SKB 385 or 485 if I wanted a new double. I hear they are very dependable. I know the old 100 and 200 series are good. Most are still in use after 30 years or more of steady service and don't last long on the used racks either if fairly priced. So it is with the BSS and the model 23 or the Parker repro.

Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 136 Location: ohio

Some of the SKB doubles have gotten loose and off face with heavy shooting. There good guns ,but not best class guns. The Japanese clones are not in the Best class guns of Spain,Germany,England,Italy and France. There good field guns for the money ,but not Best class just middle of the road field guns. Your basic , Winchestor ,Mossberg, Remington and of course the Japanese Browning clones. Of the Cheaper guns the Citori and Rizzini Fair from Cabelas are good field guns. I have worked on many of Ithaca SKB,s with broken internal parts and Browning BSS,s too.

Joined: 28 Nov 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Bend, OR

I bought the 453 on the recommendation of a British gunsmith who owns a AYA trygun and has experience with many Spanish guns. What I got is a bespoke traditional double for under $3k. By bespoke, I mean that I specified the barrel lengths, bore diameter, stock dimensions, weight, weight of triggerpulls, balance point, forcing cone length, and chokes. It also came with spare springs and strikers.

Yes there are better steels out there now, but you can say the same about any traditional double, especially if it's been around for awhile. Are you going to fire magnums in your Purdey? So I mostly feed it light loads and it will probably outlast me. Having said that, I think that in the last few years there are a few makers in this price range that are doing a better job of combining traditional gunmaking techniques with modern CNC machine tools and modern steels. My opinion is that they are mostly Italian, although Galazan's "RBI Launch" may qualify as well. I haven't seen one yet.

I've never intended to compare any of the modern Japanese double guns directly against the best the Germans or Italians produce in the fine finish and ornateness department. As far as true English best guns, they are from a different era and shouldn't be. For the most part, the new ones are built of imported parts and are hardly English in all but name.

Nor were the Japaenese guns ever meant to compete in the best gun class. What they did do is put a very solid, well built, long lasting and reasonably nice handling double gun into the hands of the mainstream US shotgunner for a price he could pay at a time when the US manufacturers could not anymore. And blew the cheap and often shoddy Spanish and Italian imports of the day right off the market.

As far as the quality control department and rugged service, I'll dare to compare the Japanese double guns against any and deservedly so. In this department, they have continously soundly beaten the Spanish guns easily and have come very close to the best the others have to offer. There are a number of cost comparable German and Italian guns the Japanese guns have outlasted too. They certainly hold up as well as any Beretta mainstream gun. Costwise, the German guns have never been competative value for value. That is why so few ever make it over here. most have been brought in by US servicemen returning from Europe.

Perhaps you have worked on these Japanese guns more frequently because there are more of them out there and many have been around for nearly 40 years. They are not new. Not hardly. They have long outlasted their expected durable service life by many years now and most have done so with a minimum of care and few to no repairs. That is impressive.

At nearly every skeet club I've ever belonged to in several states and in several regions of this country, there has been at least two members who have owned a Japanese double. The SKB is by far the most common. I've known folks who would shoot three or four rounds of skeet every week with these guns and hunt with them too. The guns never seemed to break or have any problems. None that I saw were off face. They held up very well to such use. I also know some of the sons of these men who now shoot the gun after it served their fathers for life.

I do know that after Ithaca dropped the line, SKB fell on hard times for more than a decade. Some of the early to mid 80's O/U guns left a lot to be desired in quality. The doubles guns were not being imported into the US. However, I also owned an SKB 600 12 ga. from the early 80's bought in Germany by a US serviceman. The quality was excellent, much better than what was being imported into the US. So I'd guess the quality of the US guns had more to do with what the importer wanted than any other factor.

As far as the Browning BSS, I can't remember the last one I saw or heard of in disrepair. However, that does not surprise me considering how well Browning backs their product with solid service. Now, after nearly 40 years, Browning will still service them on a parts available basis. That is impressive.

What is more amazing is how fast they overcame the extreme prejudice they faced in the American market place from the mid to late '60s and into the mid '70s. By the '80s, they had a solid reputation for durability, and good shooting characteristics, the basic criteria by which mainstream American gun buyers judge a gun.

These Japanese doubles earned their good reputation fairly too dispite the initial bad press they faced form some of the less objective gun writers of the times. I can remember them being unfairly compared to the Merkel. They were never meant to compete with it, but were meant to compete on a level beneath it. However, by the mid to late '70s, I also frequently heard the comment from buyers that considering the huge price difference and the much narrower one in quality between the two types, the Japanese gun was the wiser choice.

Even more telling is what has been related to me by every local gunsmith or small shop owner I talked to. Nearly everyone of them had nothing but good to say about the quality of these guns for their price. Everyone also bemoaned the fact that US makers could not compete. I never heard the same about Spanish guns. Most of these folks called them junk. I spent a lot of time in gun shops. Especially in the South and the Midwest. Those regions had a lot of shops.

Of course, times change. I'm certain now that Spanish guns have improved. In the 80's I read that the Spanish makers were pooling their resources and drawing parts from generic stock that was being more closely monitored for quality control. This explains the close similarity of one modern Spanish gun to another. It also dismisses the "cookie cutter" tag hung on Japaneses guns in general. It would seem the Spanish have adopted the Japanese manufacturing model after all. It was about time. They needed to do something to improve the way they were making guns.

Comparing the AyA 453 "bespoken" or custom gun against a mass pruduced SKB 385 or 485 is not a good one. However, doing so with an in stock 453 is. Here, the SKB still beats the AyA pricewise and offers more for the money. The least expensive 453 I've seen is 2.65K. The SKB guns are still less, have choke tubes for versitility, handle nicely, have nice wood, and are made of better steel. Are they "traditional"? perhaps not. Do they shoot well? You better believe it. Will they be trouble free and last long under constant use? That is a pretty safe bet based on the record. I'd buy one in a heartbeat if doubles were my thing. I prefer the Citori O/U.

Spanish guns still have a long way to go before they can fairly claim to be as good as the Japanese ones on a cost vs quality basis. As far as reputation, only time and experience will do that. They have a long way to go before the average American gunbuyer will trust them enough to buy one. It is a dilema of their own making considering the history of their spotty quality control. Until then, they will fill a niche, but nothing more.

Joined: 14 Nov 2005 Posts: 136 Location: ohio

Yes the japanese are the new kid on the block with entry level SXS. The Spanish best guns have over 100years on the Japanese in making sxs. For the money the Skb,s are good.and if you like the Citori platform in a mass produced OU they are a good middleground OU. Lets not be serious and think the Japaneses guns are anywhere near the Spanish best guns or any other European Bespoken best gun. It was a sad day when Browning and Winchester went to Japan. Maybe the next move will be China.

As I said, I don't compare the Japanese guns to the Spanish best guns. Its not fair to the Japanese. Their quality control is lightyears ahead of the Spanish, even on this price level. You'd think that having 100 years head start would count for something. However, the Spanish had to go to school on the Japanese manufacturing model to get it right-- which they did some 16 or 17 years ago. Fact! not opinion.

If the Japanese had shipped as many guns with small but pesky problems from poor QC as the Spanish have, they would not be nearly as popular as they are. If Spanish guns held up to regular or heavy use as well as the Japanese guns, then the Spanish guns would be as popular and would sell better. They would be in high demand. They are not. Fact! not opinion.

We both know the Japanese guns outsell even the middle range Spanish guns by at least 100 to 1. Its not just the price but the reliability factor. Neither you or I will have one bit of effect on the market. The vast majority of buyers has decided this issue long ago. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face and it will not change the historical record. Anyway, you can have the last word here. I've more than made my point with the plain truth and not just opinion. Good luck with your Spanish gun. I'll buy Brownings or SKB guns. I won't be counting on luck and I'll put the savings into shells and reloading componants so I can shoot more. I already know the guns will take the added use. Wink

As far as China is concerned, This will be their century. For thousands of years, they kept to themselves and for the most part, were at peace with their neighbors. The Western civilization forced its values on them in the 17th through mid 20th century and awakened a drive and a need to become part of the world community. However, like any soveriegn nation, they wish to do so on their own terms. They are just getting started.

They will be to this coming age, as America was to the last age. Their potential has not even been explored or tested. They are now learning fast. We westerners taught them well and extracted a high price for the lesson. They have learned it well, and are forming their own version of a self-determined society. Its a good thing we Americans aided them in WWII and mended our fences with them in the 1970's. It just might be our salvation, considering the sheer potential of the Chinese nation.

It has never been a matter of race but attitude. We Americans used to have a can do attitude like no other place on earth. We formed our own society out of the escapees and cast-outs of an old and dying way of life in Europe and started the world down a new path. But we are now an old society with many of the problems every old society suffers from. We have internal problems that will take most of this next century to solve if we are to remain a powerful and vibrant community. It will not be easy. Change, especially positive change, takes time, effort, and sacrifice. Nothing is free, especially freedom. To do this, we will need to be more concerned with that inside our borders than that without.

The Chinese have been reborn with fire and suffering unimaginable to modern Americans. They now look out at the world with eyes that see potential everywhere. I wish them well and consider it wise to befriend such an emerging giant much like England saw fit to do with us after coming to its collective senses in the mid-19th century. If we do not, then we stand a good chance of being crushed through our own stupidity.

I'd just like to say I agree with 16gaugeguy in regard to guns manufactured in Japan. My father bought several SXS Spanish guns when he was stationed at a USAF base near Madrid in the late 50s. He still has these guns. However, he later bought some Ithaca/SKB O/Us and these were the guns he used the majority of the time. I cannot remember him ever having a problem with these Ithaca/SKBs and he favored 20 gauge 3 inch magnum handloads for duck! He agree with the gun author Francis Sell. I have grown up shooting Brownings and Winchester 101s. I have never experirenced any problems with my Japan made guns and I used to shoot hundreds of rounds of Skeet annually with a 101 Diamond Grade Skeet. I recently sold a Merkel 2016 and replaced it with a 16 ga Browning Grade lll Citori. I have no regrets on this move and proudly uncase my Japaneese guns regardless of what expensive guns my companions might be using. I think the best Japan made guns were the Parker Repros. I have a couple. One is 20 Ga DHE with French Walnut that rivals my CSMC Model 21 16 gauge in beauty. At any rate there is my 2-cents worth.
I also agree about China! I rather be their friend than foe.

Paul Dwight