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fowler
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

There nothing wrong with the Japanese Brownings there good field guns. I have had many Ou,s pumps and auto -5,s. There great field guns. For the $$ there good guns. Lets not get into a brand war or favorite brand war. You got it you use it and lets not be smiiten about the the Best bespoken guns with a stiff upper lip. The comman man can not afford the best gun class.
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Wolfchief
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:58 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 782
Location: Indiana

Well said, Fowler. I once owned a 20 ga. AYA, a rather pricey one--- with the roughest, most grinding action I have ever owned in a two-barrel shotgun. I'd have been ashamed to say I had a hand in making that particular "high grade" gun.....they all can manufacture good ones and bad ones......

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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:12 am  Reply with quote
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There is one important historical fact most people forget about Japanese industrial and manufacturing technique. We Americans tought them the basics.

In the last three decades of the 19th century and during the 20th, both before and after WWII, the Japanese sent bright young men over here. They studied every method of manufacture, mass production, marketing, busness, etc. They took the knowledge, reevaluated it, eliminated the weak spots, and improved on our methods-- much like we did with earlier English methods a century earlier. The Japanese then built an industrial system that rivalled, and eventually surpassed the best in the world. Considering thier actual size, and the lack of natural resources, that has got to be one of the most amazing feats of brains and sheer will the world will ever see. They took what we tought them and eventually did us proud. They deserve our respect and admiration.

However, Japan cannot sustain this effort and has begun to decline industrially. Her role in the coming age will be as role model, teacher, and power broker-- much like us in this age. She has already embarked on this venue.

As industrial giants, both Korea and China will surpass Japan. They have more of everything and are developing the will to excel. They are learning, especially the South Koreans. They've learned it from the Japanese, a people they dispised for centuries. They have put their past prejudices aside to better themselves. Pragmatism is one of their greatest assets. So too with China. She sees the future and now knows the way. It is not if, but simply when.

We can benifit from being benevolently involved in the process, or we can be pushed aside by being too heavy handed and demanding. It will be decided by a simple matter of our attitude. It is a very good thing we have made the effort to be friendly with all three nations. It is a credit to the foresight of the industrial and business leaders of this country. They have looked beyond the past emnity between our nations and dragged us kicking and screaming into close ties with these people of the Asian rim. In the process, they've given us a venue to remain a powerful, vibrant, and relatively well off society well into the next two centuries through good and profitable relations with these people.
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:58 am  Reply with quote
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Joined: 09 Dec 2005
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Location: Las Vegas

I've been looking at the AyA boxlock in 16 ga. I'm under the understanding that the newer guns are of pretty good quality. In my search I found it's hard to find an English style SxS in 16ga. with correct dimensions under $3,000.00. On another note, if Kimber were to bring out their Valier in a 16 ga., I wouldn't be looking anymore!

Matt
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:24 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

That is true the Best Spanish guns are second to none in QC and material,workmanship,fit and finish.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:41 pm  Reply with quote
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Am I mistaken, or aren't the Kimbers Italian built. I read that the O/U guns are made in Brescia. They seem very highly priced for what they offer, even higher than Rizzini and Guerini guns which are also Perazzi clones without the drop out trigger system. They are for all intents and purposes, identical except for minor details.

If I was going to spend nearly 5k or more, I'd get a clean used Perazzi and never look back. Based on my experience with my TMX and MX8 trap guns, they are well built and fitted, have outstanding steel, perfect barrels, and will take hundreds of thousands of rounds without a hiccup. I also know they hold their value. They are worth much more now than what I paid for them years ago.

I also read that Kimber was going to have a gun made in Turkey. I've lost track of it since then.
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gspowner
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:00 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Bend, OR

The Kimber Valier is made in Turkey.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:01 pm  Reply with quote
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Thanks for the info. I would think DeHaan offers a comparable model for a better price. The CZ guns look like a good buy too if the guns are well made. I can't honestly lay claim to that knowledge not having more than a passing aquaintence with either brand or Turkish shotguns in general. However, I'd bet the farm these Turkish Kimbers would depreciate faster than a lead weight in warm water on the used market. So whoever buys one better make darned sure it will suit them for life or be willing to take the hit on a trade or resale.

I do know the supposedly French Manurin pistols that were Walther PPK copies were actually made in Turkey. They appeared to be well made. I owned one in .380 ACP as a carry gun once. It always functioned as well as a Walther for me. I sold it after I no longer needed a small carry piece. Now I have an old and worked over Star PD in .45 ACP. It is a good gun too. And it is Spanish made. Stars are good guns and very reliable once the rough edges are polished off. But that is far easier for me to do with a pistol than an SXS shotgun. Plus, I'd rather have a .45 over a 9mm Kurtz if things get sticky. The star carries very nicely and doesn't weigh to the point of making my pants sag when I'm packing. Lord knows i hate saggy britches Wink .
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CitoriFeather16
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:02 pm  Reply with quote
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I'd take that bet against the Valier depreciating in value. I've seen and handled one and it's Kimber quality 100%! I would put the Kimber products on par with anything out there. I have also read that Turkey may be joining the EU and if that happens prices will rise dramatically.

I'm by no means an expert but the Valier II I looked at was extremely solid, well machined with an excellent wood to finish fit and cosmetically second to none.

I would like to get opinions on other 16ga. SxS's. I find many manufactures (including the Kimber and I believe the Galzan RBL) have fixed dimensions on their guns. (this is what it is, take it or leave it). There seems to be a lot of AyA's and Uggies out there with various LOP's, DOC and DOH. so a better chance of finding a gun that fits.

Just my observations and I appreciate all opinions!

Matt
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:47 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

The turkish guns are are very spotty on QC and metal.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:36 am  Reply with quote
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The Turkish guns are a fairly new entity on the American market. It will take time to earn a sound reputation for reliable, consistant quality. I agree that their QC can stand some improvement. That is a matter of each manufacturer learning what the market demands and adjusting his peoples techniques and attitudes. Turkish labor is not well paid and the individual pride of workmanship has not been solidly instilled in them yet to the same degree as the German, Japanese, and Some Italian work forces. That too will take time.

As far as Turkey entering the EU, I think the matter is based more on strategic considerations than any economic consideration. Turkey might benifit more than the EU in general. Their manufactured goods will need to be improved on the reach parody with the better European goods or even the Eastern European goods. It may, or it may drag the market down. Only time and the Turkish attitude towards QC will tell. However, they are not a people to be dictated to and never have been. So change will come from within and not from external pressure nearly as much.


Kimber has a reputation for quality. However, I've seen a number of their guns, rifles and handguns that while nicely finished, were less than 100% reliable. I think their superior reputation has been store bought through clever and slick advertizing, which is reflected in the price of their guns.

I've seen the Italian built O/U guns. They are nicely finished, but are nothing more than Perazzi clones and not worth the extra money asked for. A good used Perazzi will hold its value far better and cost about the same as a new Kimber. There is no arguement about the Perazzi reputation for quality. Its reputation has been solidly established for decades now. It is a superior gun on all counts.

Kimbers have a distance to go to be able to compete, given the extreme similarity between the two brands. Their Turkish guns even more so when comparing price vs value and quality against the other Turkish imports. I think money spent on a Kimber could be more wisely spent considering what you actually get for your dollar, and what you can expect back upon resale.
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Paul Dwight
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:28 am  Reply with quote
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I don't know about the reliability of Kimber shotguns, but I do have experience with Kimber handguns. After experiencing numerous "tap, rack, bang" drills during a defensive handgun couse with a malfunctioning Kimber .45, I awitched permanently to a Glock .45. I haven't had a single problem with my Glock. I'm sure Kimber's Italian O/U guns function fine, but I'd watch out for problems if they introduce an autoloader. I have seen the new SXS and it looks nice.

Paul Dwight
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:37 am  Reply with quote
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My experience with the Kimber .45 1911 clone is that it needs about as much aftermarket tuning as any other 1911 clone. Its price is high for what you are getting. The .22 rimfire guns are not even close to the older ones from the early 1980's.

Kimber was bought out and reorganized by a new group sometime back. This new group is looking to capitalize on off-shore sources for its products. It's advertizing campaign has been well funded and very slick. The company has spread a lot of bread around to post the very well designed ads and get the favorable articles and evaluations from the gun media. but their prices are higher and the quality no better than the other mid to upper middle range of Italian imports. Quality is more than a fancy finish and a slightly better piece of wood.

Most of the Italian makers who are building their guns on these generic and mass produced modified Boss barreled actions are not really offering anything much different than the other. The basic barrelled action, parts, and fit are about identical and come from the same small handfull of sources around Brescia. Names like Rizzini, Guerini, Kimber, and some others are simply names invented or borrowed by the American import houses all offering the same basic gun with a slightly different exterior.

Its more a matter of who can afford the best press and advertizing, and who is willing to pay and put their guns in the hands of a few more shooting celebrities than the others. Its mostly smoke and mirrors. Once the majority of prospective American buyers recognize this situation, these guns will get sorted out and brand names created by the import houses will pass away. The value of the guns will plummate.

The same thing happens about every decade or so. These guns are definately of a better quality than the Zoli, Pedersoli, and Navy Arms italian O/U guns of a generation ago and deserve a higher relative price. But the prices bandied around for this new generation of Italian imports is not justified with the quality or anything really unique. They are actually competing to sell us the same thing.

I'm not saying the guns are not good guns. The all shoot and handle well. But their prices are a bit too high for what we are offered in return. Plus, the guns will not hold their value as time goes by.

Only the Beretta, Perazzi, and maybe a few more Italian makers stand apart and go their own way. If Beretta made a 16ga. gun for the domestic American market, I'd buy one. The others offer me nothing I can't have in my Citori and want far more in price than either Beretta or Browning. Perazzi is in a different class of gun entirely. Time and the demands and rigors of international and Olympic competition has proven it. They dominate this venue completely. Their game guns are pricy, but do hold thier value well.
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DanielC
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:55 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 7
Location: California - East Bay

I own a few AyAs. On the lower end, I picked up a 453 28 gauge with 29" tubes. For a plain jane boxlock, this gun has turned out to be one of my favorites. Handles much better than the price might suggest, and although it won't win a beauty contest, it shoots like a dream. Had a striker go after the first couple of thousand rounds, which can happen on any gun, but I had a new one fitted in no time. No problems since.

On the other end, I've got a No. 1 12 ga, which is simply stunning. The wood is gorgeous, the fit and finish was frankly surprisingly clean - one of the best spanish guns I've ever seen. Everyone who has taken a look at it seems surprised at how well finished the gun is. Heck of alot of gun for the money, when you compare what you get for 9k on the market for a new side by side.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:13 pm  Reply with quote
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Dan, my AyA, probably the only AyA I will ever own is a 16 ga. 1960 Matador. Even today, the price for a clean one is well below a thousand. I was given this one and it shoots and handles very well.

I've seen and handled a few 453 boxlocks w/ twin triggers. They are nice. However, for the current going price of 2.6K, those strikers should never break... ever, ever, never. Frankly, I do not see that big a difference between the Matador and a 453, certainly not two thousand dollars worth and not in shootability either. My gun is over 40 years old and the strikers are still striking. I shot the hell out of that gun on the skeet field, and in the bird fields this fall and winter and not a burp, well past 2k rounds.

I've owned and shot a bunch of guns. Many were bought with well past several thousand rounds through them and all but a few were and are 100% reliable. 95% of those that were not were that way because of improper servicing and/or repair. I've had a few new Browning Citori models with problems from the maker, Miroku. In every case, they were fixed for free under warrenty, replaced for no charge, or my money was refunded 100%. I've had a few ejectors go after well past 10,000 rounds, fixed under warrenty for only the shipping costs to Arnold, MO.

The same goes for my older Remingtons. Every one still shoots every time I pull the trigger. Most were bought used for well under $400 with thousands of rounds through them and thousands to go. My oldest 1100 I bought NIB for under $200 in 1975 at a discount shop after Christmas. I've replaced the neoprene O ring once and kept it reasonably clean for its entire service life. It still shoots without a hiccup and has never failed to fire or jammed if the ammo was ok.

I have several friends with SKB/Ithaca SXS guns from the 1960's and '70's with thousands and thousands of rounds through them. They are all still on face and 100% reliable. they are as trim and handy as my Matador. then there are the older American guns like Sterlingworths and Parker Trojans closing in on the century mark with untold thousands of rounds behind them. The properly used and serviced ones are still shooting well.

As far as high priced guns, and for me, that starts at 1.5k, there are better choices, dollar for dollar, reliability against reliability, service policy, against service policy. The Spanish gun makers still don't go out of their way to ensure their guns function reliably. In my opinion, a gun over 2k that breaks is a shocking rip off. Yet they never seem to be willing to fix their mistakes under warrenty either. The owner must pay for it. This is a poor attitude. The prettiest wood and engraving on a gun that I can't count on to not break before at least 30,000 rounds, is all window dressing in my opinion. No offense intended here, but my experience and those of many others I know of just won't permit me to see it any other way.
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