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<  16ga. Guns  ~  In double I like extractors over ejectors 2 triggers vs. 1
fowler
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:34 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

Call it old school or K.I.S.S. it seems more fool proof to me. Why fix it if its not Broken? Some like the bells and lights,but I,ll stay with the old way in SXS shotguns. Pick the brass out with fingers and put them in the pocket and barrel selection by triggers. Hum!, I must be older than dirt or just getting feeble.
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jparkers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:56 am  Reply with quote
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fowler,

I agree completely. Of course, I am older 'n dirt-- grey headed anyway!
Two triggers and extractors work just fine and much simpler and much faster than SST. I do take it a bit further though, I shoot two SxS and two O/U-- all four with DT and three of the four with extractors. I must also admit that I do shoot clays with single trigger guns; except, when I am practicing with the hunting guns.

Nice to know that I'm not the only one with such thoughts.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

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fin2feather
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:39 pm  Reply with quote
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My Sterlingworth has shell kickers; all the rest have extractors, and I must admit the kickers took some getting used to, but I'm OK with them now. But I would have been just as happy with it without 'em; I'm well past dreaming that I can ever get off more than two shots! As for triggers, I definitely like one per barrel!

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I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
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Mattkcc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:02 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 124
Location: Kansas City

If a field gun has 2 barrels it should have 2 triggers. Instant choice of choke and no worry of the barrel selector being in the wrong position. Being a lefty I think all safeties should be on the tang.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:03 pm  Reply with quote
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Ya, Right. And muzzleloaders are better than breechloaders. Battleships are better than aircraft carriers too. Come on guys. If two triggers were quicker and better than one, every competion shotgun would have them. They most certainly do not.

Ejectors easily pop your empties right into your palm if you remember to put your hand over the breech as you open the gun. Nothing could be easier or quicker either.

The only advantage to two triggers and extractiors is that the system is easier to make cheaply. Single trigger, selective/ejector systems have more moving parts that are more complicated to machine and fit together well. However, a well designed, well made selective system is at least as good, just more expensive, and harder to master if the owner does not practice with it.

If two triggers were faster to fire, professional dangerous game hunters would use them exclusively. The truth is nearly all PHes acknowledge that the single triggered box lock double rifle is the quickest gun to fire two shots with. But everyone of these men are practiced shots and expertly familiar with their tools. They have to be. Lives depend on it.

I have hunted and shot with guns having the Browning type single selective/safety system for nearly 25 years now. Not one has ever let me down or caused me to miss a bird--ever. I mastered the system a long time ago through practice and more practice. That is the only difference.

And there lies the rub. Most hunters do not practice using their hunting guns enough. The guns stay in the safe or closet until the night before opening day. Then when things go wrong, its too easy to blame the gun rather than one's lack of practice.

Please don't let your prejudices cloud your perceptions, and please do not pass it off as fact either. It is simply opinion based on one's experience---or lack of it. Wink
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fowler
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:51 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

Yes the Japanese guns are good cookie cutter mass produced guns. But Best class not. The Japanese cheaper Browning guns are good working mans guns. The BSS Browning I used to hunt with was a good field gun ,but the big beavertail forend and heavyness and no balance. Made it ungainly compared to the Spanish best and Italian and of course the English guns. One reason there no longer made. Even in the Sweetsixteen Auto-5 the JApanese made clones will never be like the Herstal models of Europe. And a good double rifle will have two triggers and seperate actions of each other in class one side fails to fire. There is none faster than double triggers for the first 2-shots.
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:30 pm  Reply with quote
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The 16 ga. Citori is a far better balanced, more versitle gun than the BSS and lighter too. The early BSS doubles were made too stoutly in the barrels for their design. However, such is not the case of the SKB, the Wichester/ Kodensa 23, or the repro Parkers, Japanese all. Well balanced all. And all well thought of by most folks who were lucky or smart enough to buy one. Even the BSS demands big money now. Try and buy a clean 20 ga for under 2 k. The English patterned splinter foreend ones will bring at least 3k. So someone likes them. Plus, the steel in them is some of the toughest ever used. these guns will stay on face long after your Spanish and English assembled guns have loosened up to junk status.

As far as cookie cutter, mass produced, nearly all Spanish and Italian guns are also made up of mass produced parts and of vastly inferior steel. Kemens, Perazzis and top end competion Berettas are the only exceptions. By the way, Kemens are nothing but overpriced Perazzi clones. Even the Italians have stiffer and stricter proof requirements than the Spanish or used to. So the steel used in their guns has tended to be better, but not by much. However, this has probably changed with the advent of the EU and the expanded world wide gun market of today.

Spanish and the smaller Italian makers buy parts from common sources. Except for embellishment styles, they are pretty much all the same. None are hand made, just some are hand embellished. even you must have noticed the extreme similarity from make to make. A lot of the parts will actually interchange with a little fitting. So don't kid yourself, because you're not kidding me.

Even if craftsmen with the talent and time to hand file out a complete action still existed, only the extremely wealthy could afford them. Certainly not me or anyone I know. Plus, the craftsman'd wear out a hell of a lot of files and most of his years getting it done on the steel Miroku uses in their "cheap guns".

Further, the standard grade Japanese repro Sweet 16 A-5 guns now commonly command higher prices than the Belgium made models. And again, are made of tougher steel, come with choke tubes, and are more reliable. Time has proven the superior quality of the Miroku made guns, and people are now willing to spend more on them because of it. Old unfounded prejudices die hard, but they do die eventually. The smart money always gets spent in the wisest way, with an eye for long term service and retained value. What is best is often a matter of form following function.

"Best gun" is an expression some slick huckster thought up to skin the suckers with. The English are the best in the world at selling fancy junk to prospects at "royal" prices. Most of these fools are getting the royal treatment alright. However, no one wants to admit that he's bought a set of clothes just like the emporer's. Even when he's bare-assed and freezing. He'll hold his nose in the air and march off as if he's draped in jewel studded gold lam'e only the he and the other "best people" can see. Rolling Eyes

Also, most English guns produced after WWII were and are made up of forgeign made parts , read that Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese, and assembled in England. They won't take the constant use or last as long as any Miroku gun made after 1960. In fact, the most popular hinge guns in England today are Mirokus. Go figure. Shocked s please give us common, poorer folk a break from your "best guns." Most of us will never have the money to buy one. That is not a bad thing either, come to think of it. Laughing

There is not one PH today that uses a sidelock DGG. Perhaps some might use one for the less dangerous species in his off time in an area where there is no threat of a dust up and when taking a busman's holiday without client in tow. When it comes to a beast that can take lead and still grind a client into dust or rip his guts out, that is any of the big five and some of the bigger, more aggressive antelope, the mechanically set, non selective, single trigger box lock with ejectors rules. Fact not opinion.

In fact, virtually all African countries where big game is still legal to hunt now require only certain designed and approved guns of sufficient caliber be used by the licenced PH with a concession within their borders. Foremost is the coiled spring powered, mechanically set, single triggered nonselective boxlock with ejectors, followed by a major caliber mauser actioned, controlled feed magazine rifle with claw extractor. None are pure sidelocks. Even boxlock/sidelock hybred designs tend to be frowned on. Side locks can loosen and move out of battery so its claimed. Plus most have solid springs which fail more than coiled springs. Realistic or not, this is the line of thought behind the rules. The PH must also prove his ability to shoot any approved gun of his choice quickly, accurately, and reliably or he doesn't get licenced. Stories of dead or mauled clients make wonderful sundowner tales but are very bad for the economy. Wise thinking I'd say.

This thread is getting to be too long and too much fun. Lets quit and start another war somewhere else. Whadda ya say? Wink Laughing
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fowler
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:40 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 136
Location: ohio

Gone deer hunting with rifled 16ga. Ithaca for a week. Sure would be nice to have a double 16ga. SXS slug gun with rifle sites like the Germans use on boar. Extracters and double triggers of course!
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fishjerker
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:50 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 20 Aug 2005
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Laughing Hey 16GG. I normally side with you, but I too am of the opinion that a SxS is at its best in the configuration of 2 triggers and extractors. I liked your example of the PH's and the box lock double rifle. The only flaws are rifles aren't choked as shotgun barrels are. So the hunter dosen't have to decide to use the barrel that will stop the charging buff at 100 yards, or 20 yards. They are both choked the same. Also I try to never say never, but I don't recall anyone being trampled to death by a wounded "bull" quail. Like you said though these are just opinions. Sometimes when getting something done the fun is in the process and equipment. Otherwise we would shoot autoloaders with no plug in the magazine at birds grouped up on the ground. Limits everyday that way. At least until we run out of birds.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:59 pm  Reply with quote
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I'm neither here nor there on ejectors . . . I can take them or leave them. But there are a heck of a lot of gunsmiths that make good money putting ejectors right. Extractors are pretty much bulletproof, and the only real reason to go with ejectors has to do with speed of reloading, which is not a factor for most bird hunting situations.

Single trigger vs double . . . the double will always have an edge in reliability over the ST, especially in sxs. SOME ST's on sxs are quite good, the one on the BSS being perhaps as good as any on a modestly priced gun. SKB's . . . owners will report doubling. 23's . . . triggers have a lot of creep, and the guys that bought up the parts inventory will tell you there's not much they can do about that, although they can adjust for pull weight. Parker Repros . . . you will hear quite a few complaints about the ST, mainly because they copied the same system Parker used, which was not the best. For whatever reason, there are a bunch of OU's with SST that are quite reliable, far fewer sxs.

But reliability aside, perhaps the greatest recommendation for the DT is that you have instant selection of chokes. If you're going to have 2 different chokes, why not also have the ability to select your barrel when the bird is on the wing, which you can do with just a little practice? Every year (including this one), I always kill a few pheasants, occasionally a sharpie or prairie chicken, on which I consciously select the tight barrel because of the shot presented to me. Most selective trigger systems don't really allow the shooter to switch the barrel AND operate the safety instantly. The Browning H pattern probably comes the closest, if you practice doing it enough.

The way I look at a gun with DT and extractors compared to ST/ejectors is pretty much the same way I look at a vehicle with a standard transmission. Extremely reliable, pretty much bulletproof in fact, and if something does go wrong, it's a lot cheaper to fix than an automatic transmission.

And one more advantage to a DT gun: If you have a misfire, you can still get off a shot. With most SST's, which operate on an inertia system, if you go "click" on the first barrel, the only way you can fire the gun is to switch the selector. Mechanical ST's (far less common than inertia), like on the BSS, will fire with a 2nd pull.
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fin2feather
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:39 pm  Reply with quote
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Right on, Larry. KISS!!

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I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon...and stopping to chat with him, hear the sleek lines of his double gun whisper "Sixteen." - Gene Hill, Shotgunner's Notebook
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Bronco
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:56 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 158
Location: NW Florida

16GaugeGuy,
I must take exception with your statement that most PH's prefer their DG rifles to have single triggers. You are misinformed. Ask any DG PH that uses a double and he will tell you that a single trigger is the recipe for disaster. Attend the SCI meeting or the Dallas Safari Club meeting this year. You will have the opportunity to talk to many PH's and handle many double rifles, both new and classic. I'm not talking small bore doubles such as the rimmed 8mm or 9.3x74. Rifles chambered in calibers from 450/400 to the .577NE and 600NE will have double triggers. Bob
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16gaugeguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:03 am  Reply with quote
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I think the original claim by fowler is that a double trigger is faster to fire than a single trigger. That is hogwash. My original claim is based on the overwhealming choice of competion guns with single selective triggers. My Perazzi MX8 doubles gun has one trigger. I do not know one competative shooter who uses two. And I know a lot of shooters. As to preferences,in hunting guns, each to his own. Speed of firing is not nearly as critical here in most cases.

The restrictions placed on which guns are to be used by PH's in the various countries is determined by those governments and not the PH himself. The boxlock action for a double is by far the overwhealming choice. A well designed, well maintained mechanically set single non selective trigger on a post 1960 gun is very reliable.

I am not talking vintage doubles from before WWII. Quite a few of these British and French guns were problematic. This was due to the Browning design patent issue which they refused to pay rights for and tried unsuccesfully to work around.

I'm talking modern double rifles using a modified Browning or Remington/ Kreigoff system. Most older vintage guns are not allowed on the approved list for obvious reasons. That is one of the reasons the mauser magazine gun is fast replacing these doubles. But again my original point that , for speed, no mauser or double trigger will ever be faster to fire than a single triggered, non selective boxlock double rifle.
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Larry Brown
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:23 am  Reply with quote
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Guy, I think most of us here are concerned with what works in hunting shotguns, not what works in competition guns or for a PH. For starters, virtually no one shoots a side by side in competition. If I recall correctly, you're currently shooting your first sxs, which means you haven't had much experience with them, whether they have one trigger or two. I've played around with a bunch of them, both vintage and post-war, and quite a few have single triggers that are sufficiently problematic that if there were a choice available, I'd take DT's hands down. Not that there aren't problems with DT's, although it usually has to do with improper spacing between the triggers (not enough room for a gloved finger) rather than a mechanical issue. If by the Browning trigger you mean the one they used on the Superposed (which is, I think, the same on a Citori--or at least the safety/selector is), because of the barrel orientation, what works on an OU can't be used on a sxs without considerable adjusting and tinkering. And for whatever reason, ST's on OU's simply seem to be less problematic, in general, than on sxs. The good Browning trigger for a sxs is the one found on a BSS, but it's quite different than the one on a Superposed. Different selector, mechanical vs inertia, etc. And I think it's actually a Miroku design rather than something Browning invented. Not sure why that trigger isn't used on more sxs (perhaps patent issues?), because it's a heck of a lot better than the ST on some sxs that are far more expensive than the BSS.

I doubt that speed is the issue in the choice between a ST or a DT. For target shooters, the slight hand movement involved going from one to the other MIGHT be a consideration, but it's probably just that OU's--a much later development than sxs--came along about the time ST's were becoming more popular. And other than on some European field guns (especially German), you simply don't see many DT's on OU's. Sort of like trying to find a sedan with a stick shift . . . although on sports cars, you still see them quite regularly, and they still work as well as they ever did.
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Bronco
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:14 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: NW Florida

16GaugeGuy,
The only restriction imposed by some, not all, African governments is minimum caliber, or more specifically, minimum muzzle energy. They don't care what type of rifle you are using as long as long as it meets minimum energy requirements. For DG, factory .375 H&H with 300gr bullets meets this minimum requirement. Truthfully, the African customs officer doesn't know jack about ballistics. If the SN on the rifle matches the US export customs form and you have the number of cartridges specified on their form, they are happy. You are obviously well versed in the shotgun arena, but large caliber double rifles are used for an entirely different purpose. Wounded buffalo or elephant pose a bigger problem than wounded grouse. If interested, I will send you e-mail addresses for several different PH's. Asked them what they think about single triggers. Better yet, get a copy of "African Rifles and Cartridges" by Boddington. He did an extensive survey of PH's and the guns they use. Bob
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