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Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Into the Wild

I have found a number of 1 1/8oz loads at a local store - Fiocchi HV 16g
3 1/8 dr, 1300+/- fps, 1 1/8 oz load, 5 shot and...

Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 1 1/8 oz, 5 shot, 3 1/4 dr, 1300+/- fps and...

Winchester SuperX High Brass 1 1/8oz, 5-6-and 7 1/2 shot, 3 1/4 dram, 1300+/- fps...

I am not concerned with the recoil of these shells but rather I am concerned with whether I should shoot (from a functional/mechanical integrity standpoint) hot 16g loads in a new spanish gun?

Will the stock be prone to cracking? Are the barrels rated at high enough pressures?

I hope sooo - for late season pheasants I'd like to shoot these shells. I think it should be ok but I wanted to make sure...

Thanks,

Ty

I've never owned an AYA but if the gun is worth the price, it should handle them just fine. I'd load it up and go chase some birds. I did have a Bernadelli, which is a light Italian gun, and shot a lot of HV 1 1/8 oz shells through it. It didn't hurt that gun, but it didn't make me shoot any better either. I just finally gave up on SxS guns and started buying OU's. I just seem to shoot them better. I do like the looks of a SxS. If I get another one, I might put it above the fireplace and just look at it.

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 863 Location: NoDak

Hi, go right ahead and use them. I use the GP loads in my 16 Uggie, Grade IV with no problems what so ever. These are not as "hot" as some may think. Recoil in my 6.5lb gun is fine. One must remember that spanish proofing is some of the toughest in the world. If the gun won't hold up, no proof. Also, spanish steel is very strong, unlike some folks believe.

AyA makes a damn good quality gun of some of the finest materials available. You would be hard pressed to damage this gun with the loads you stated.. You could damage this gun (or any other for that matter) with "hot" handloads, but is rare as most handloaders won't load such rounds. Anyway, good luck.

All the best!!!

Greg

AYA shotguns are very common over here in the UK. They are very well made and of good steel and they will stand up to those loads with no trouble. Whether they pattern well is another matter I prefer the standard 16GA load myself but I do use a few hotter loads now and then.

Guest

Shooting a 1300+ fps load may not prove as effective as you think. If you check out a ballistic chart of retained energy at 40 yards between an 1150 and 1300 fps loads, the difference is so minute to really go with the hotter load. Where your pattern WILL be affected is on ignition. I would almost bet the house that given the same quality of lead, your 1300 fps will have more shot deformation than an 1150 fps. I don't know about you but I am more concerned with putting more shot in my pattern than saying I shoot hot loads. The only way that you can put this to the test is load some 1150 and 1300 fps loads and see if there is a significant difference between the two loads. It would be great if you can put your results in this thread...

I would concur with Terry. I have had good success on Pheasant with 2 1/2" RST #6 and they are set up for low pressure (7,600 psi) and about 1150 fps. I might add I have quite open chokes (.001 and .010) and usually don't take more than a 35 to 40 yard shot. They are not always anchored at 40 yds, but that is the choke and gunner, not the load.

I have seen other posts here of good success with similar loads for folks that have been out to South Dakota hunting. A few stated they liked #5's better.

Forgot to mention these are all 1 oz loads.

Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Into the Wild

I would not mind shooting loads that are not as "hot", however, in my local market heavy hunting loads is all I have been able to find in 16g and at prices cheaper than I can order lighter shells via the web....

There is a local gun shop that sells the Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz 5 shot for 7.25 a box, PMC 1 1/8 oz 4 shot for 5.40 a box, and Fiocchi 1 1/8 oz 5 shot Golden Pheasent for 10.00 a box, this is the cheapest local prices I have found - ordering special loads or lighter loads online seems to cost more money especially when shipping is included.

I did recently find Win SuperX 1oz 6shot for 8.50 a box which should be a pretty good load.

Is PMC ammunition any good? 1 1/8oz 4shot does not make for very dense patterns so I am not sure how much of this shot to buy - it is the best price I have found though.

Guest

I'm assuming that most of the posters for this thread are interested in putting together a good load for tough birds like a wild pheasant. In my part of the country, we don't have a good wild pheasant population and the birds that exist towards the end of the season have learned all of the necessary tricks. When you have to walk several miles to get your infrequent point and flush, the last thing I would want in my gun is some cr*ppy loads. Just because some ammo company puts something like "Golden Pheasant" doesn't mean it's going to be better than a well put together handload with high antimony lead in a nice wad shot with a moderate launch fps. Shooting a very high end factory load which can only be determined by doing your proper patterning and examining the shot quality. Why save a few pennies for each load where you have poor shells. When I cannot handload my own shells, I can buy two boxes of good ammo where it will last a few seasons. You may want to think of how many cripples you will get with using lower quality shells.

Good luck...

Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Into the Wild

I'm not up on the various number designations of one AyA to another, so I'll just give a blanket statement concerning what I've seen and heard. If your AyA is a boxlock with good solid shoulders where the stock abuts the back of the action block, I'd say do not worry. However, if your gun is a side lock, you might be running the risk of cracking the stock through the inletted area. This is usually the weak spot on such guns for a number of reasons, drying, age, finish deterioration, and petroleum based oil damage being four of the biggest.

Sidelocks are a holdover of pre-smokeless powder days. The design works well with ammo that has a moderate shot weight and modest velocities. Black powder developed less velocity than is possible with smokeless. So the old timers simply used bigger shot to compensate. That approach still works very well today, and does not stress the gun at all.

Non-colloiding polar pre-petroleum based lubes like bee's wax, tallow, whale oil, and olive oil were and are less damaging to wood. The old finishing techniques like soaking the wood for weeks or monthes in linseed, tung, and other finishing oils also helped to impregnate and preserve the wood to a great degree. Most modern gun houses will not do this now, even for their "best" guns.

Petroleum based lubes and solvents also attack and destroy the protective qualities of these old style finishes as well. Modern varnishes will resist better, but do not empregnate or toughen and strengthen the wood one bit. So modern gun houses are forced into a trade off the old timers never faced.

I'd not push one of these more expensive sidelock guns. The difference in repair/replacement costs on the wood is huge. Boxlocks are the next generation so to speak. Most modern boxlock designs have been developed to handle post-1930 type smokeless ammo and the added stress it can put on a gun. The finishing agents and the techniques used to apply them are better at resisting modern lubes and solvents.

In short, if you want to use modern high speed loads with bigger shot loads, use a modern gun designed for them. It's as simple as that.

There is a tip in here as well. If you want your boxlock or O/U stock to hold up longer, take it off and put a few coats of modern varnish on the inside inletted area of the stock to seal it well. Most modern makers tend to skimp here--even the best of them. This little trick will help your stock wood last much longer and resist any oil and solvent spills into the inletting. Just don't seal the stock during a very dry period or after its been stored for a long time in a dry spot. Let the wood absorb some moisture first and acclimate itself to average humidity. This will help greatly and avoid problems like loose inletting, stock swelling, etc.

Guest

The original post from Griffinowner was whether your AYA could handle "hot" loads. This thread (for better or worse) has gone to the effectiveness of shooting "hot" loads. In Griffinowner's original post, there was no mention of shooting conditions or shooter experience along with the quality of dogs. First of all, I was quite surprised when you mentioned the amount of "wild" pheasants in Utah. Most of the people that I have met from Utah had indicated that due to humidity conditions in Utah affecting the bird hatch, thus, making a very inconsistant wild pheasant population. I have been told that many Utah hunters have to depend upon preserve shooting to get into pheasants. You also mentioned that you don't take a shot over 30 yards on your birds. If I restricted my shooting to under 30 yards, it would not matter what shell I was using. It could be low or high velocity with minimal difference and I would have a "stoned" bird. The only time you would see a difference would be past the 30 yard mark. If I had that 30 yard restriction upon the birds I shoot in California, it would eliminate 75% of my bird take. Does that mean I have poor dogs or I'm not a good hunter?? No, it just means that we have highly pressured birds that won't allow a dog to stay staunch without either running or flushing a longer distance (more than thirty yards). Even with having to take longer shots, I still shoot a 1150 fps load.

For clarification, I did not include the Winchester high brass loads as a "cr*ppy" load. I did make mention of the "Golden Pheasant" as a pure marketing to make the hunter pay alot for getting little. Just because they say it's "copper coated" just means the pellets got a nice paint job. Their quallity of lead is significantly lower than compared to the high antimony brands. But the bottom line is if you're taking your birds within 30 yards, it really doesn't matter what you shoot.... If pheasants were around for the Native Americans to hunt, I bet alot of them would take birds with a weighted throwing stick... preferably in a sixteen inch long model...

Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Into the Wild

Most upland birds in America are shot under 30 yards - most hunters just think they are taking further shots than they really are.

I also stated that I hunted pheasants in 3 different states this year... Montana, Idaho, and Utah (I hunted upland birds in general in 5 different states this year). My father and his brothers are still active farmers in Idaho and farm about 4,000+ acres. However, we probably are able to hunt on 10 times that much private acreage because of the farming connections my father has (add this to the public acreage we hunt in Idaho and our options for places to hunt really go up). One of these areas we hunt is open for extended season through Dec 31st.

The last Pheasant hunt of the season for me was the weekend of Dec 29 -31st in Idaho - I saw a lot of wild roosters and most got the heck out of dodge before we got close enough for a shot, however, if you keep pressing forward and the dogs keep doing their work you'll get a few birds to hold... even late season. I got my limit each day I hunted the last weekend on wild birds but I can honestly say I never had to take a shot past 35yrds while doing so, even on savy late season birds. However, I do feel that having a "hot" load in the second barrel on a late season hunt can be advantageous not because the shots taken are drastically longer shots (though they may be up to 5yrds or so longer on average) but because the birds are bigger, faster, and tougher late in the season.

After all the limit is only 3 birds - if the majority of birds are getting up out past 40 yrds I don't feel I HAVE to take a shot a "higher percentage" shot will sooner or later present itself. Plus I hunt for the dogs - If the bird isn't pointed I don't shoot at it - I want good bird work from the dogs first and foremost because being out with the dogs is why I hunt.

Griffonowner:
To get the answer to your question I would call Brian Bielinski the owner of Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI. He can be reached at 231-933-0767. Brian is an AYA dealer and a fairly well recognized guru of SxS guns. He is a frequent contributor to the articles on doubles in The Upland Almanac. If you are ever in that neck of the woods he has a fabulous shop.

I offer up the following only as a source of nice ammunition in the pressure/fps you mentioned you might like. I realize you are trying to purchase them locally at possibly a lower cost.

Depending on your perspective the shipping is relatively cheap. The last time I ordered 2 flats from RST the shipping and handling fees were $18 and they were on my doorstep within a few days.

RST can be ordered directly from the company in 16 ga, but only by the flat at a cost of $8.50 per box. With shipping that would be a little less than $9.50 per box. They will mix a flat for you in any combination of load and shot size you want. I don't believe they carry 2 3/4" shells for 16's, just 2 1/2". Their phone number is 570-553-1651. If you have never tried them you might give them a whirl. They do carry 2 3/4" in 12, 20 and 28 ga. They also carry paper hulls but these are pricier at $12 per box. Personally, I love the paper hulls - they bring back my youth with the smell.

Fieldsport also carries a wide variety of quality 16 ga ammo. I am not sure on there shipping charges, but the prices per box are similar to what you are quoting in this thread.

Guest

Several years ago, I wanted to get a nice O/U for target and waterfowl. I just didn't like the feel of the Browning Citori and heard that Miroku (where Citori are also built) had a better balanced gun that they only sold in Europe. The only stickler was that the European shipped Miroku were chambered for 2 3/4" and I wanted 3" chambers. I talked this situation with my gunsmith who had worked at Purdeys about the whole feasibility of having one of his contacts in England to purchase a gun and rechamber it for 3". He explained that there is a law in England that whenever a gun gets rechambered, it must go through a proof test. That means they would fire the expected 3" rounds through the gun and as long as the gun doesn't break or blow up, it passes the proof. If the gun doesn't make this proof test, then I'm out the money. Given that scenario, I just purchased the Citori and put up with its average handling.

Your AYA is proofed to a specific chamber pressure which is designated on the barrel. If you go through some reloading recipes, you can find an approximate chamber pressure for the various velocities and shot weight. I have an Italian S/S which was built for handling (very similar to the Spanish guns). Most O/U can handle the higher pressures but a game gun will lnot be able to handle that same pressure.

Hunting guns don't get a fraction of rounds put through it like a target gun. Unless you're shooting some crazy 1 3/8 oz at 1400 fps, you're probably safe with you AYA but I agree with Chicago re. checking with a experienced AYA dealer. BTW, I'm jealous that you have acess to such prime private hunting...

Good luck...