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Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Idaho

If you hunt on public lands, go check out, http://sportsmen4responsibleenergy.org

Member Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 110

Ok, you have some left wing type hatred towards "big oil", (maybe Haliburton, Cheney too).

Instead of all that, your choice of 16g shotgun?

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

Cover group for anti-rancher and anti-multiple use. See lots of them out here in the West and Idaho. Idaho Bird Hunters, Western Watersheds Project, Idaho Wildlife Federation, just to name a few.

One more to throw into the discard pile.

I prefer 16 ga sxs. How 'bout you.

Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Idaho

Well, I prefer english boxlocks, by that might be my apparently leftist point of view coming out...javascript:emoticon(' Smile

')
In all seriousness, this is not some conservative versus liberal debate. As a guy who considers himself pretty conservative on most issues, this is a sportsman's issue, not a political issue.
Personally, I think that oil and gas drilling could be done more responsibly on public lands. I drive a 4x4 truck just like most everyone else on this forum and I am not going to delude myself that oil isn't important. That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with asking companies to make sure they are looking out for the habitat that will provide opportunities for future generations of hunters and anglers.
Having lived in several western states and hunted and fished in most of them, I can assure you that irresponsible drilling is having an impact in some places. Idaho is one of the lucky places were they haven't drilled yet. Here in New Mexico, we are seeing substantial impacts to mule deer and elk winter grounds and migrational corridors and it is impacting hunting opportunity.
If you want to boil this down to pure politics, that's your prerogative. The reason I read this board though is because I find the level of discourse higher than it is at other hunting discussion sites.
If you think that the oil companies have the best interests of your children at heart, then accept my apologies and go on to the next post.

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

I grew up in the oilfields in CA. I lived in Wyoming and have been in the gas fields, and, yes, I know what I am talking about as I have been a BLM field manager. I sat as a member of the Sage Grouse Working Group in Owyhee County, Idaho.

I just don't buy the named groups arguement, just like the other groups that I mentioned that have their single use, single minded ideals.

I don't know one way or another what your political inclinations are and could care less, but if you want to see what joining a group like that does, take a look at just what happened in CA's west side of the San Joaquin valley, as a large result of similar "conservation" groups urging.

Be careful who you align yourself with because as soon as they get their way, they will toss you under the bus as quick as snipe dodges an inattentive hunter.

I, too, prefer this forum to others for the respect given each other and each to their own opinion. Mine is just one more opinion posted.

BTW: I prefer Spanish guns, both side lock and box locks, but have a couple of Italian guns too!

Member Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 110

I'm by no means an expert. I just drive a gas powered vehicle and I understand that fuel "fuels" our economy. It's not political to understand that we are driving business, jobs and our security out of the US when we take a "no drilling" stand...

...and speaking of shotguns...

I guess I'm a more blue collar 16g'er. I love my Ithaca model 37s. I have a few others. But for me I'll take the old 37.

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Meridian, ID

So why is it always when somebody doesn't like drilling in certain areas you have to bring up the automobile versus the horse and buggy choice. Don't know about any of you but I can see in color not just black and white.

I don't know anything about the above mentioned organization but there are a lot of people with legitimate concerns regarding this topic. Just because our current "leaders" are hellbent on giving away as much of our natural resources as they possibly can before they leave office doesn't make everyone that disagrees with the policy a bunch of left wing environmental wackos. Though of course they would like you to believe that.

The current/new issue of Field and Stream has an article that deals specifically with this issue. Might be worth taking a look.

As a Montana landowner/hunter I too have concerns. I consider myself a conservative/conservationist; TR is my hero. Without land/habitat who cares what gun I hunt with? Drive through SE Montana and there are differences between now and even a few years ago.

Research Coal Bed Methane and, done pooly it is a real issue. Sharptails, Sage Grouse, etc. won't nest near compressor stations, etc. To be fair, I also drive cars, and, have no easy answers.

I'm proud to be a member of Rocky Mt. Elk foundation and wish I could do more.

My $.02

Best to all

Member Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 3438 Location: Illinois

Bottom line---Profit trumps common sense EVERY time Evil or Very Mad

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

Member Joined: 02 Oct 2007 Posts: 1975

Chorizo.
I agree with you. to much is being done and said just for "feel good" points of view and not done with carefull studies. If something isn't as we feel it should be, lets blame somebody.

Member Joined: 15 Jul 2007 Posts: 230 Location: SW Idaho

Gil,

What I am talking about at the USFWS is the culture and not a specific individual. I have the greatest respect for some of the people, but certainly not for the culture of the majority USFWS personnel. My opinion of the USFWS, of course, is subjective, but is based upon over 10 years of working closely with them over habitat, endangered species, and conservation issues. Others opinions may vary, as is their right.

And you have a right to see that study, it is "Braun, et. al, 2002"

Braun, C. E., O. O. Oedekoven, and C. L. Aldridge. 2002. Oil and gas development in western North America: effects on sagebrush steppe avifauna with particular emphasis on Sage Grouse. Transactions of the North American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference 67:337-349.

Here is the extract from the USFWS Federal Register Notice to begin a study into listing as an endangered/threatened species the greater sage grouse (which was later denied): Link to full document:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/04-8870.htm

Extract:

The petitions identify noise as a potential impact to the greater
sage-grouse through interference with sage-grouse mating displays,
communication between hens and their broods, movement out of suitable
habitat, and physiological stress. Acoustic signals are important in
greater sage-grouse mate selection (Gibson and Bradbury 1985), and the
impacts of noise on greater sage-grouse resulting from activities
associated with oil and gas development on public lands have been
addressed in National Environmental Policy Act documents (e.g., draft
Environmental Impact Statement for the Pinedale Anticline Oil and Gas
Exploration and Development Project (BLM 1999)). In Wyoming's Powder
River Basin, leks within 1.6 km (1 mi) of coal-bed methane facilities
have consistently lower numbers of males attending than leks farther
from these types of disturbances. Noise associated with these
facilities is cited as one possible cause (Braun et al. 2002). However,
the actual impact of noise from anthropogenic sources on the greater
sage-grouse is currently unknown. The petitioners acknowledge the lack
of scientific studies on the effects of noise on the greater sage-
grouse (Webb 2002, page 141; American Lands Alliance et al., page 145).

Here are some key sites to look at also:

http://sagegrouse.ecr.gov/?link=112

http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/oil-gas/Petroleum/projects/Environmental/Federal_Lands/15467Task1.html

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/literatr/grasbird/grsg/grsg.htm

Here is the Owyhee County plan, of which I was a member of the Local Working Group:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/hunt/grouse/conserve_plan/owyhee_workplan.pdf

And here is Idaho's plan which I contributed to:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/grouse/conserve_plan/

I just provided you with lots and lots of reading that will be hard to assimilate in even a few weeks of reading. I encourage folks to read, use critical thought and come to their own conclusions based upon sound knowledge of the facts. By simply using emotions, we could and sometimes do hinder those things that would help.

Gil, thank you for asking. Critical minds want to see the facts.