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Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Northeast Ohio

16GG,

What are the fps and pressure for the 1 oz. 20.5 gr. Unique load you mentioned? I temporarily had no data available from LPG, powder co. publications or the internet available to me the evening before the dove opener and had been wanting to load some 1 0z. #8 dove loads, so I went with your load but with a little less powder (just the way my bushings worked out). It did fine on the little gray darters. Thank you. I'll have access to tested data again soon but I'm just curious what you load may test out at. I'm assuming it's a published load or a very close custom version you came up with. I got every bird I deserved with it.

It's at or around 9800 to 10,000 PSI. It's not a low pressure load. It is my top end 1 ounce load. It travels fast, hits hard, and patterns beautifully out of my Citori and the Ithaca 37 as well. This is a full blown hunting load designed to hammer pheasant out to any reasonable range suitable for a 1 ounce load. I'd not recommend it for target practice unless you like being smacked around a bit. I'd not recommend it for any older double any gun like an Aya Matador made prior to 1990. It is suitable only for strongly made 16 ga guns like the Citori.

If you want to load 19 grains of Unique in the same package, you will get a good 1150 FPS load at around 8800 PSI. 19.8 grains will get you to about 1200 FPS at about 9500 PSI. Both of these are excellent loads for moderate ranges on birds like legal hen pheasant, young cock birds, and any grouse. I stuff the extra .7 grains in to ensure the blow delivered is enough to drop the toughest pheasant going. It will do just that. It is the equivilent of a commercial 1 ounce express load.

As I stated, I do not use low pressure loads for my pheasant hunting ammo. I've no need to. I also do not shoot more than a box or so per season. I'd not recommend it for any older double. I'd also not shoot it in my AyA Matador either, or any inexpensive Spanish double made before 1990. It is not that the pressure is too high for these guns. It is the recoil and the stress the extra hammering will do to these more delicate guns over the seasons. (This is the reason I'm so high on the Citori. with a few notable exceptions like the Merkels, it is built like a bank vault next to most double guns.)

If you'd like a really nice dove load, try the 7/8 ounce load I've mentioned before with 16 to 16.5 grains of Green Dot. It drops them like they are poleaxed and its far easier on you and the gun. I've used it for high overhead passing shots on ferel pigeon with #7 shot, and it's outstanding. Either #7.5 or #8 shot would work for dove.

I'd go with 7.5 shot for the passing shots. Use 8's on deked incomers. That is what worked for me out of my old Winchester 101 20 O/U during my Florida years. It ought to be even better out of a 16. I was still wet behind the ears then and didn't own a 16.

Joined: 25 Jun 2006 Posts: 79 Location: SE Pa

Int Clays works well too. I submitted a number of loads a few years back. RST has used it in many of their 16 gauge loads or at least used to. It is a very clean powder.

International clays is basically a Green Dot clone. They weigh slightly different, but volume for volume, they are almost an exact match. Universal Clays shares the same compatability with Unique. Both of these Clays powders are good hand gun powders as well.

The last I knew, these powders are manufactured in Australia and use the same basic recipe for the older Hercules/Alliant powders. All four are a flat disc, double base powder. They all have a bit of nitroglycerine added to the nitrocellulose to get a better, more even burn.

Guest

It's amazing we can shoot anything with all of these discussions of the number of angels dancing on a pin. Pressure is a result of primer, powder, case and payload. If your gun can handle a higher pressure, good. If it cannot, then find a lower pressure. I shoot almost all of my lead hunting loads at 1150 fps. If I had a cripple or missed bird, it was not because I did not shoot a higher fps load but I just flat out missed that bird. I have misplaced my retained energy chart but if someone can post the difference between a #5 lead at 1150 or 1300 fps at 40 yards, there is basically no difference. Shooting a higher lead fps round doesn't get you any more birds and probably gets more deformed shot. Picking out the right powder is finding something that gives you a little flexibility in recipes and isn't too dirty. Howevery, we're shooting shotguns. Just because your gun patterns Unique well doesn't mean that some other powder won't work just as well. We're not shooting varmint rounds with .25" accuracy. It's a shotgun where close is sometimes good enough...

Guest

Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 443

Guest

While I have a limit of doves to clean in my refridge, I had to look through my file cabinets for my retained energy charts to go over some "numbers". Using the Ballistic Products, Inc of "Statistics & Pellet Ballistics. These are the "facts" for #4 lead pellets:

1200 fps @ 40 yards has a retained pellet energy of 3.0 and
1300 fps @ 40 yards has a retained pellet energy of 3.6.

If you're shooting #5 as discussed earlier, both these numbers will be slightly lower. At either velocity and either size shot will give you a dead bird provided it is centered in your pattern. The earlier post made no mention of the effects of shooting a faster fps to shot deformation and its effect on the shot pattern. Unless you're loading a very high antimony shot, I would be bet my truck and favorite shotgun that your patterns will degrade when you up your fps to 1300+. Bottom line for the readers of this thread is to find a few loads that you think might work for you, pattern a bunch of rounds and have some good shooting.

Remember, we not doing brain surgery around here...

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

I am going to have to throw my two cents in again. I have stated before in this forum that I choose to load almost all of my hunting loads at a minimum of 1300fps. It isn't about pattern density or shot deformation, for me it is about penetration. The higher velocity shot will do a better job of penetration into the vitals than lower velocity. This can be all the difference in the world between a pheasant losing feathers and flying off to the horizon or one in your game bag.

I have graduate education in physics, not using physics here, I am talking about 30+ years of hunting.

The main reason I started reloading was to produce shells with better performance than commerically available.

It is also why I like hevi-shot especially later in the season.
I examine every bird I shoot, I look at pellets, where the wounds are, how deep, how many are critical, etc. You can learn alot about how and what you are shooting by examining your birds.

Guest

Hootch I submit to you that you will have better penetration at lower velocities by using a high quality plated shot. For that reason I use copper plated shot for my Pheasant hunting loads. This is not the current copper washed stuff but the good old 5% antimony Winchester Lubaloy shot from the 60s and 70s. When that is gone I will switch over to the nickle plated shot imported from Italy. It has the same attributes and penetration as heavy shot but is double gun friendly.

Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 1460 Location: Eagle, Nebraska

I use nickel plated #5 1/2 on pheasants. I also sometimes use #7 shot which is a very hard shot, can't quote the antimony composition off the top of my head, but chose it because of its hardness.

I use Tungsten Matrix where non-toxic is required, and have had good luck with it. I will try Nice Shot this coming week on sharptails. the nice shot allows me to use an old double that I previously left at home if encountering non-toxic areas.(fps on those loads are around 1225). Under my 1300fps minimum, but is highest fps for the pressure and payload I am choosing. (7/8oz Nice Shot) And using less pressure as I plant to use the old double. I like that load over the 1oz @ 1150.

I still will use the highest velocity load I can load for the gun I plan to use it in, and to the highest velocity I can reach while maintaining pattern integrity.

Guest

In the Sept/Oct 2008 Pointing Dog Journal, Larry Brown covers the differences between the various fps of shotgun rounds. It's always a "good" article when it reconfirms your own beliefs...

Terry, I don't disagree with you in principal if you are using enough #5 shot. For me, that starts at 1-1/8 ounces of shot for pheasant. At 1150 FPS, hard #5 shot will carry up well enough to down most pheasant out past 35 yards and a bit very cleanly.

I stated I use a 1 ounce load of #6 shot for my usual and customary load until later in the season. 1150 FPS might be enough velocity out to 30 yards or so with #6 MAGNUM shot on the average pheasant. However, I like the added insurance 1250-1300 FPS gives me with #6 hard shot out to 37 yards or so. The extra hard shot does not deform in my loads enough to negatively affect patterns to any meaningful degree. Unique and other similar powders give a more progressive push which tends to not flatten the hard shot as much as a faster powder like Red Dot can.

Over the years, I've seen enough well hit pheasant fly through a slower pattern of #6 shot and not go down cleanly. The faster loads do hit with enough added power and penetration to make the difference between almost dead and dead in the air. Sometimes it takes a bit more than good shooting. It takes good shooting with the right load. If that is splitting hairs to you, then I'm a dyed in the wool hairsplitter or pin dancer or whatever you want to label me as. All I care is that most of the birds I shoot die cleanly and quickly. My loads do it well enough for me not to question them anymore.